Secular Democracy Held To Ransom

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A reader's comment on my post 'The Metastasizing Anger in France' prompted me to write this post today.

Most immigrants seek to maintain ties with the country of their origin. They want to retain  some of their cultural and racial heritage and not become just another spoonful of the soup that arises from cultural homogenization.

I will update it with some links a little later, but for the moment, here are my thoughts in their raw form.

The reference, whilst certainly correct in general, fails however to address how societies of the adopted land are viewed back home, i.e. what ideological 'baggage' immigrants import.

Take for example the Italian American communities with their passion for maintaining their Italian cultural heritage whilst integrating with equal passion into US society and culture - this wasn't always easy, given their strictly Roman Catholic faith. But for them America stood and by and large still stands for 'Opportunity' and 'Prosperity', the land of the Great. Similar views were held amongst almost all other immigrants of Christian or Jewish faith - not to mention the positive sentiment shared even today by most Buddhist and Hindu immigrants from Asia and India respectively.

The observation is therefore certainly correct pertaining to said communities: As I understand the position, it is the reader's implied belief, that apart from the normal desire to retain one's own cultural identity, as in the Italian American example, there is an equal desire to integrate into the adopted society and culture. And it is his position, that by and large this also applies to the Muslim immigrants/communities in Western Nations in general and in France in particular.

That however is not the case amongst Muslim communities in Denmark, France and in Germany, and to a lesser extent here in the US.

And therein lies the problem: Most Muslim immigrants left their homeland indoctrinated with anti-Western sentiment; Western societies being largely equated with Christian faith. We are the Infidels. Morally corrupt. Materialistic. Doomed.

Consider the simplistic, yet valid question put to the average Muslim youth involved in the riots: Where do your allegiances lie, with France or with the struggle of Muslim nations such as ..... take your pick. You can be certain it won't be France, and it wouldn't have been for decades. The same answer would be forthcoming in Germany, albeit less fervently, as Germany has gone out of its way to encourage integration, which by and large lead to better conditions but no more assimilation, i.e. Government funded Mosques and housing projects, failed to convert hearts. Most German parents no longer object to marriages with Muslim Turks, but you watch the Turkish father... (if you are interested check the suicide rate among young Turkish women in this context...) 

This brings us to the notorious dilemma 'what was first, the chicken or the egg': What fundamental reason is causing the failure to integrate? Is it the ingrained spurn of Western societies, which are equated with Christian religion, or is the experience of being rejected by equally suspicious Western societies? Moreover, would anything change if by some miracle, Western societies wholeheartedly embrace Muslim communities? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding NO. Again, therein lies the crux of the matter.

Futhermore, it is an unfair generalization that conservative opinion relating to the Iraq war is merely a  politically motivated rhetoric. I for one have always held on to my belief that a military intervention in Iraq was necessary. It may have been better planned, executed et al., but necessary none the less.

Please don’t loose sight of the alternative: Saddam Hussein still in power continuing his regime of endless human rights abuse in defiance of all and any UN resolutions. Sanctions would have merely prolonged the suffering of the Iraqi people. As I said many times before, positioning the existence of WMD as the base for the justification of military intervention and the adoption thereof, was probably the biggest political gaffe committed by both Bush’s and Blair’s administration. Set the WMD issue aside, and you may find it much easier to rediscover the fundamental necessity for both America and Britain to take a military stand. Appeasement doesn’t work with dictators such as Hussein, Hitler, Milosevic, Kim Jong Il et al.

I grew up under the oppressed, communist, totalitarian regime for the first few years of my life, and even as a child it left some deep scars that will never heal. This may be why I feel so strongly about the forceful terrorizing violence adopted by predominantly Muslim extremist all over the world.

For example, for the past five years, persistent violence has plagued the island of Sulawesi. Last week, three Christian schoolgirls were attacked by machete-wielding bandits and beheaded, with one girl’s head left near a local church. In the past, such attacks have almost all been initiated by Islamic radicals. It's sick, and we don't want that disease to spread here. But we in America ought to be paying close attention to Indonesia, with 212 million people, and being the world’s largest Muslim country, where Christians are under serious attack. UPDATE via Michelle Malkin and  The Strata-sphere: Two more girls were shot in the head in the evening of November 8 , in Sulawesi.: "This had my blood boiling [...] Had it not been for [...] I was going to post a flame-thrower on the media’s misplaced priorities" (referring to the fact that the MSM has not picked up the story)

Unfortunately, violence throughout Sulawesi seems to have increased since Saudi Arabian money started funding Muslim radical groups. Read more about the butchery @ Michelle Malkin

If the Islam worshipers do not appreciate the democracy enjoyed in the United States, and the freedom of speech and trade that we all take for granted, they ought to leave and live elsewhere . If they wish to create another Islamofascist oppressed state that they hold so dear, then by all means let them go and live that life, but leave us to carry on living ours in the basking sunlight of the free world.

The U.K. Times summs up succinctly how I feel, whilst reporting on the riots in France:

"The authorities are also concerned because many of the estate militants are part of the radical networks who preach the extremist cause and recruit potential jihadists, according to police.

A street version of radical Islam permeates the youth culture of the estates, where Osama bin Laden is a hero, George Bush and Israel are evil and President Chirac’s State wants to stifle their religion and identity by banning Muslim headscarves in schools."

INTERESTING LINKS:

Ed Morrissey in The Weekly Standard, and @ Captain's Quarters, and via Ed the WaPo article from October.

The Wall Street Journal 'Why Immigrants Don't Riot Here'

On our friends the Saudis, from LGF and The Algerians in France.

Mark Steyn is a must read: Wake up Europe you have a War on your Hands:

"Today, a fearless Muslim advance has penetrated far deeper into Europe than Abd al-Rahman. They're in Brussels, where Belgian police officers are advised not to be seen drinking coffee in public during Ramadan, and in Malmo, where Swedish ambulance drivers will not go without police escort. It's way too late to rerun the Battle of Poitiers."

Jeff Goldstein @ Protein Wisdom who I call my Thomas Mann of The Blogosphere, tells it how it is

"This fake Islamic hijab is nothing but a political prop, a weapon of visual terrorism. It is the symbol of a totalitarian ideology inspired more by Nazism and Communism than by Islam…."

and points to a fantastic article exposing many radical Islamist traditions as fraudulent.

Our darling Anchoress goes into a succinct Islamic 'cherrypicked round up', and as usual her wise words cut through the hundreds of pages of print like a hot knife slicing through butter:

"Apparently having not read the email from Marianne, the WaPo says these riots have nothing to do with Islam!  Nothing!.  Okay. Allah Akbar to you, too."

Sigmund Carl & Alfred has blogged extensively on this subject, and fasten your seat belts; fluent and persuasive, the articles are delivered with potent and succinct lucidity; government health warning issued for the weak hearted extreme left:

"The ideologies of Radical Islamism are very clear. The goal is to destroy, punish and subjugate non believers. The real enemy are free peoples. Freedom is antithetical to terrorism because freedom usurps the power of the terrorist. With out the power to instill fear and punishment, the terrorist is nothing. What is the icon of freedom? The US, of course. Our freedoms, success and ever growing potential are what the terrorist must destroy. Prosperity is the terrorists fifth column. They cannot abide by a culture that is prosperous, because that culture seeks growth and progress. The terrorists cannot abide progress. That too, weakens their hold."

Ed Driscoll: "The now-defunct Ottoman Empire was the first of several countries over the previous century to be dubbed "The Sick Man of Europe". But economically and socially, Europe as a whole increasingly looks to be the Sick Man of the World, with dire--and now immediate--consequences for all of its population.

Of course, it is possible to end a malaise and restore vitality, but the EU's endless bureaucracy is far too entrenched--and far too blind--to allow such measures to actually be implemented."

NEWS JUST IN: 

Early reports from Amman, Jordan state that three hotels have been bombed, with 12 dead so far.

Jeff Goldstein @ Protein Wisdom: "Not to make too obvious a connection, but Zarqawi is, of course, Jordanian.  And the simultaneous nature of the blasts suggests Al Qaeda involvement.

On a related note, these hotels are all popular with both foreign journalists, security professionals, wealthy Jordanian businessmen, and Israelis.  Not that any of that matters to Al Qaeda.  They’ll slaughter anyone."

Michelle Malkin , and Jay @ StopThe ACLU have more. Thanks for the tip Jay.

Check MSNBC and AP and WaPo

Thanks to The Anchoress, for The Strata-sphere link who quotes from Stan @ Two Minute Offense:

"CNBC has been running with the story about the bombings in Jordan. A little while ago they had an NBC News producer on to talk about the significance. He said that it looks like Al Qaeda. If so, US officials will have to think seriously about whether their anti-terror policies are effective."

For Goodness sake, are there any journalists left in the MSM?
Oh yeah, and I tripped over my prayer mat today....and it's all President Bush's fault 'cos if he hadn't blasted that bomb factory at my cousin's house, he would have made me a new prayer mat. Really. Get a life.

One of my avid readers Kenny Pierce, whose intelligent and lucid comments are posts in themselves weighs in:

"Islam absolutely and uncompromisingly rejects the basic assumptions of European naive multiculturalism. In so doing it exacerbates the divide between the Europeans-in-power and the Muslims-under-their-feet. And by saying further that the very moral order of the world gives Muslims the right to impose their will on others rather than <em>vice versa</em>, it exacerbates the natural human bitterness that already exists in anybody who is kept in an inferior position by government force either direct or indirect. Not to mention the natural human bitterness felt by anyone who has to deal with Frenchmen on a regular basis..."

Here is one of the rare MSM species with some excellent observations via Real Clear Politics:

"Perhaps the biggest absurdity, at the moment, is the continuing, somewhat distracted response of the international media -- especially the French media -- to the revolution that has begun in France. They persist in characterizing the revolutionists as “disadvantaged French youth”, and pretend their uprising has only incidentally to do with Islam."
[...]
The joke is completed because, except for the odd media-savvy poseur, the rioters aren’t asking for improved welfare arrangements. They are asking e.g. for Nicolas Sarkozy’s head. They want French policemen dead. They are demanding that the French state recognize that parts of France are “Islamic territory”. They want French laws replaced with Sharia. And their chant, in each of the many hundred locations where the rioting continues every night, is “Allahou Akhbar! Allahou Akhbar!” It is impossible to imagine a more complete disconnect between them and the French society that is now looking for ways to appease them.

For the deeper reality is that France has become a moral and demographic vacuum. It has become, in the main, a pagan, childless, hedonistic country, in which there will be a Muslim majority within two generations. (Already, at least 40 per cent of the children born in French hospitals are to Muslim parents.) On present trends, the Islamicization of France, within the lifetime of most of my readers, is inevitable.
[...]
It is against this background reality, that the riots happening today across France must be considered. They are a turning point, not only in France but all Europe. For the “moral and demographic vacuum” I mentioned above, is not in France alone. The same cultural deathwish prevails in Spain, Italy, Germany, the Low Countries, Britain, Scandinavia -- and Canada, by the way. It is called “multiculturalism” in this generation, but in another generation will be called something else."

LATEST UPDATE NOVEMBER 10: "Al-Qaida claimed responsibility in an Internet posting Thursday for three nearly simultaneous suicide attacks on Western hotels that killed at least 57 people, and wounded more than 115,  as police clamped down on security and began running DNA tests to try to identify the bombers."

What the Brits are doing about it. Is everyone in Parliament fallen asleep over there? Hugh Hewitt weighs in.

Comments

[Alexandra]

What a site Comhorlio! Being entirely politically incorrect myself I think those images in the 'UN concerned about the abuse in Indonesia' section are incredible.
Got a little lost in the star universe, is there an editorial section? Is it your site? Some incredible stuff there, just need to find my way around the galaxy...

[Cornhorlio]

Muslim Fundamentalist often misuse the developments in Malaysia as an example of Islamic success. That's lots of bullshit.
The main driving force in malaysia's economy and development belongs to ethnic Chinese-Malaysian(30% of the population) who are mostly Buddhists, christians and agnostics.

Check out http://www.huaren.org

[Alexandra]

Raj my friend I have a lot of Indian friends, and I remember this incident only too well. It was 2002 if I remember correctly. What a horrific story, mostly women, no?
It's worthwhile to sit and think about that for a moment: 52 people, my God. Burning alive...
Post this comment on yesterday's post on that girl who got torched, I would like the readers to see it. Thanks.

[Raj Khanna]

THIS INCIDENT SHOULD NOT COME AS A SURPRISE TO US INDIANS AS WE HAD A SIMILAR INCIDENT AT GODHRA (GUJARAT) WHERE 52 Rail Passengers (Hindu Pilgrims) were torched by fanatic muslims.
Our Politically correct media as usual tried to cover-up this incident and tried to make it look as an accident. However when the People retaliated against muslims on a large scale, they were the first to condemn them.

[jess1dering]

And NNW, that popular opinion is not formed in a vacuum. It is the MSM that I hold most responsible for the protracted war against terrorism. Yes , I know it will be a long and arduous struggle in the best of circumstances. However as it stands now, the enemy, I am quite sure, must receive great assurance and encouragement and strengthened resolve through ingesting the careless and disloyal words of members of the "free" press. It would seem that somewhere along the line the words "free" and "cheap" got mixed up with one another. There has got to be a way to hold them accountable, to expose lies when they tell them, to applaud REAL reporting. It seems to me that our freedom depends on it. Seems to me that those who betray truth also betray all good principles such as freedom, honor,etc.

[North by Northwest]

SCA,

And that is especially true when dealing with cultures who first and foremost view strength and force as a measure and benchmark for durability, viability and, unfortunately respectability.

In a nutshell, the reason why IMO a military intervention in Iraq was the only option in the given circumstances. Show of strength and power was necessary not only to end Saddam's reign, but also as a demonstration for the entire region, that the West was in fact capable of such resolve.

Irrespective of how much we abhor such line of argument, with its dull and blunt logic, made worse by mindless echoing, spewed about by frothing-at-their-mouths WWW fanatics, its time had come; its singular reasoning outweighed quite simply any alternative. A fact, critics may allege, was what least motivated President Bush, but, following any reasonable assessment, could not possibly be dragged into doubt as to what drove Prime minister Blair. His conviction and resolve should have won over the most dovish of hearts. His action was a rare display of true statesmanship; there was not one single ulterior motive even the harshest critic could have construed to suggest that Blair could possibly have pursued political gain, or any other for that matter. There was none. On the contrary, Blair was staring political suicide in the face no matter what the outcome -- in absence of hard evidence, the motives for Bush's resolve and conviction should therefore be equaled with those of Blair.

And contrary to popular opinion, I say today with even stronger conviction, both men were absolutely right. Decades from now, historians will IMO overwhelmingly concur. The delivery may leave a lot to wish for, but "stay the course" is still the only right thing to do -- end of pontification ;-)

[sigmund, carl and alfred]

You cannot talk to a cancer cell. You cannot reason with it, cajole it or convince it not to do what is it's purpose and function.

It is true people are not cancer cells- but until we are willing to force change, we cannot just talk, cajole or accomodate those whose stated goal is to hurt us, we have no option.

"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."- Abba Eban.

If there are consequences- real ones, not just talk- I submit much of the problem will dissapate.

[Alexandra]

Jess,

What can I say, you know how passionately I feel about this, and yes, as the years have worn on I become more vehemently opposed to radical oppression, and as you say probably less politically correct.

But my genes strong as they are, have never allowed me to care for considerations such as those. Enough of my close family have lived and died for democracy and freedom, to earn me the right to say "Europe watch out you have a war on your hands!".

I have read ample in research material for this article to make me seriously worry...some too extreme, which I have not linked...but still...scary, very scary.

[North by Northwest]

Did I say 'vehement opposition' and leave out 'self-serving', 'hypocritical' and the rest?

[North by Northwest]

I intensely dislike people who gloat; who dwell on another's misfortune with malignant pleasure!

But I can't rid myself of the recurring chuckle when remembering Dominique de Villepin, the French prime minister, who as foreign minister in 2003 so visibly relished every opportunity to repeat his country's vehement opposition to the Iraq war, his country's determination to use it's veto power in the UN to halt Britain and the US if necessary, and who thusly positioned himself and his country as the heroic ally to Iraq and the Muslim world at large. After all, he represented the one nuclear superpower who stood up to big bully Uncle Sam. You may also recall the personal glee he so charmingly pretended not to display during his UN addresses and during subsequent interviews.

The French loved him for his performance and rewarded him with the Premiership.

You've got to love the perfect irony this latest twist of fate has.... DOWN BOY, DOWN ....

As I said, I hate people who gloat...

[Alexandra]

Semanti, thanks for the recognition. I just object to being told I link to articles I haven't read, which is a Blogosphere sickness in general, and therefore by definition a sore point.

I just posted another interesting link to an article at Real clear Politics, which is worth reading. You won't like it, but you should read it.

BTW, I often link to liberal blogs, after all I am right off center in general, unless you get me onto subjects that make my hair stand up on end like: Communism, Oppression, Terrorism, Islamofascism and nails scratching down a blackboard, and then I'm afraid like Siggy says, I throw bombs not leaflets.

[Semanticleo]

You seem a bit miffed. Don't be. If I misintrpreted your take on the situation, I apologize.

BTW;
You might want to consider liberal links to your posts in the future. There are some good thinkers there too.

[Alexandra]

Semanticleo,

A lot of the points which you raise have been covered already, so I won't repeat them, however, you say:

"Although you reference the WSJ article "Why they don't riot..."
it's as though you did not read what clearly disputes your premise;"

If you notice my heading above it, it says : Interesting reads.

I don't simply give my readers back up links for my own point of view. I am not one of the echo chamber bloggers, and therefore will always try whenever possible to give slightly different but valid points of view, especially from an excellent journalist like Mark Steyn. If you found something in that article you agree with, I am glad. This blog is not the biased reflection of the MSM one sided partisan tactics who will only quote you more of the same. You'll have to go to Daily Kos for that.

But having read this blog for a while, I am surprised you don't know that already. I am here to broaden the mind, not limit it to echo chamber rhetoric.

[Semanticleo]

Kenny, Jess and NxNW;

I must say it is a pleasure discussing more than the superficial of matters most important, with each of you.

It is not my intent to win a discussion upon entering. Rather, it is to selfishly stimulate and smoke-out my own thoughts by scrying them upon such relective minds as yours.

I assure you, Jess, I am far from naive about the primitive culture we call Arab. I understand quite well that the male is foremost, as in most oriental cultures, and the female form is submissive and service oriented. The treatment afforded males in the culture creates a sexual immaturiry that stifles emotional development. They are quite handily enabled by their female caregivers. Theirs is a culture that has, as mentioned, a noble history, but one that has been lost over time.

They still have the pride, but with little remaining substance.

That is not the point of my final post on this issue.

If you recall, prior to and during the second world war, the Japanese were a proud people who had a superiority complex as well. That superiority also sprang from religious conviction. Americans, really, all foreigners were 'Gaijin', or barbarians.

They were fiercely nationalistic and racist. After Pearl Harbor, the fear of some in America, was that Japanese-Americans would be loyal to Japan before they were loyal to America. As we now know, that was patently incorrect. But, fear ruled the decision making process and we know the consequence. Businesess
were forfeited, as were private homes and possessions. Placed in (plainly said) concentration camps for the duration tore families and friendships asunder. Such mistakes must not be repeated. I trust you folks will fight the trends that ignorance fosters.

[jess1dering]

I must acknowledge your graciousness and your kind good humor and ( with cheeks ablaze ) thank you for it:)

[antimedia]

It's not surprising to find peaceful, freedom-loving Muslims in the US. Why do you think they came here?

[North by Northwest]

Hear Hear! (LOL)

[Kenny Pierce]

[laughing delightedly] "...endearingly naive..." And I, in my turn, love in a woman the ability to take the sting right out of an insult with the proper tactful phrasing...most skillfully done indeed, Jess.

[Kenny Pierce]

On that inferiority complex thing, I should give credit where credit is due: I am shamelessly parroting ideas I first encountered in Bernard Lewis's Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice. Which, I might add (in reinforcing your point, SCA), happens to have a world of documentation on such matters as the number of times that either Mein Kampf or The Protocols of the Jewish Elders are cited as authoritative works in Arab doctoral theses.

However, even though I plead guilty to having stolen Lewis's inferiority complex analysis, I have at least spent two decades paying attention to the Middle East with an eye to seeing whether he's right. Twenty years on it seems to have help up pretty well, as far as an amateur such as myself can tell.

[jess1dering]

OOOPS!! Not all of the men posting above....YOU know who you are :)

[jess1dering]

Alexandra, The gentlemen posting above are decidedly intelligent men. I love that in a man: it's just so darned attractive. I am loathe to say this because I do not mean to offend, but they are also endearingly naive. If only all of us could still enjoy the faith in all of human-kind that they seem to enjoy. To their credit, I think that this very faith is a reflection of who they are as human beings. You and I no longer enjoy that luxury. We have been forced to accept the harsh reality that evil can exist in the human heart and that that evil can organize and pose a terrible threat to all that is beautiful. Your maternal grandfather was murdered by this sort of evil. Terrorism is evil. Radical Islam is evil. And however politically incorrect this statement may be, the truth is that Islam is as far from a religion of peace as any religion that exists on the planet. Even a cursory reading of "The Prophet" should convince any lay person that Islam is NOT a religion ,at core, that promotes freedom.

[Kenny Pierce]

Sure wish Sigmund would get Carl and Alfred to address the question of national inferiority complexes as they apply to Arab Muslims.

He, as many others, were taught in the natural superiority of Muslims. The notion of earning credibility and being recognized on the basis of merit threatens many Muslims. It calls into question fundamental beliefs- and demands of them measurable accountability- a frightning and unnatural notion to many.

The idea of being judged on the basis of empirical performance and objective evidence of merit rather than on ideological assurance, is much more frightening to Arab Muslims than it is to, say, Kazakh Muslims, for the simple reason that all the evidence that Middle Eastern Arab Muslims see before their eyes, is evidence of their own inferiority. (Not nearly so true of Middle Eastern Muslim individuals who have overcome the difficulties of making their way out of their own countries and into the U.S. There's a major self-selection bias to begin with that makes Muslims who get to America not terribly representative of Middle-Eastern Muslims even before they get here. Then they get here and find thriving Arab Muslim communities that have much more in the way of objective accomplishment to admire than you're going to find in the Gaza Strip or the Syrian army, allowing for the development of a much more healthy form of ethnic pride than is readily available to anybody living in the "democracy" of the West Bank. And then the American assimilation machine, which is without peer, goes to work on them and their kids.)

Arabs (especially young Arab men) want to see themselves as warriors, like their illustrious ancestors -- yet only the existence of the French keeps the various Arab armed forces from being the unchallenged laughingstock of the military world. They want to see themselves as rich in wisdom, like their illustrious ancestors -- yet thanks to their rote-memorization-based education and their intransigent insistence (in many countries) on handcuffing 50% of their brainpower, the people who gave us algebra now cannot even think of keeping up with the never-ending torrent of scientific advancement in which the supposedly inferior infidels revel. And they want to be comfortable and well-fed and to have their children live in safety and happiness, like everybody else in all of human history -- yet every Arab country that lacks oil, and even most of the ones that have oil, is an economic basket case, while Arabs tell "Arab leader" jokes the way a Texas would tell Aggie jokes if he really meant them seriously. They hear every day portentous religious leaders telling them that they are supposed to be better than everybody else. Yet everybody else looks down on them -- and if you're going to go on empirical evidence...well, um...wow, that's a hard sentence for a kind person to finish.

Well, the Pseudo-Triplets know a heckuva lot more about inferiority complexes than I do. But it seems to me that half a dozen different variations on Muslim culture share the mother of all inferiority complexes, and that that inferiority complex wouldn't be nearly so bad if their imams didn't keep telling them how much better they are than anybody else and how the entire world is stubbornly disobeying Divine orders to kiss the well-deserving mystical Muslim ass.

Maybe we can get a post about that out of the Triplets sometime. I'm sure it would be better than this one...

[sigmund, carl and alfred]

Semanticleo- while it would be nice to join hands and sing Kumbaya, I suppose I have been influenced by reality.

I don't give a rats ass that you know some very nice Muslims. So do I.

That said, what passes for culture and religion in the Muslim world is pure hatred, plain and simple. That truth is reflected in their mosques (transcripts of mosque and religious tv programming available on request), in schools and in the media (would you care for some pastries baked with blood?).

Mein Kampf has been published more times in the Arab world than anywhere else, and remains a best seller. The notorious Protocols remains a favorite too, with numerous iterations on Arab screen and stage.

While you may see the world through your very nice friends, I do not. I may celebrate my friends, but I - and they- clearly understand the reality of the hate that passes as culture in the Arab world.

While I'm all for options, avenues and programs, don't think for a minute I'll close my eyes and ears to reality. In fact, all you have to do is listen to what they are saying, every day, in their own language- and then listen how your friends apologize for it, as if hate, terror and evil might be be excused 'because..'

There is always a 'because' and there is always a 'yes, BUT..'

[Kenny Pierce]

Semanticleo,

With one of your basic premises (not all Muslims are alike) I couldn't agree more, having a great deal of experience with Kazakh Muslims whose gentleness, friendliness, openness, love of humanity, compassion, and genuine tolerance I would put up against any American I've ever met.

Yet Islam is still and all a big part of the problem, and the fact that large numbers of Muslim thinkers (very loosely so called) tell their followers that Muslims are first-class people and everybody else in the world is third-class, very much militates against assimilation, just as "Siggy" has already said. For assimilation implies a recognition that in some respects (though certainly not all) those to whom you are assimilating, are better than you. You must value that which characterizes the Other, in order willingly to change in order to become more like him. The act of changing implies that that which you have left behind is inferior to that with which you have replaced it; to try to have "the best of both worlds" is to admit that some parts of the Other's world are at present better than your own. This is, I think (though I'm not remotely trained in psychology and therefore don't actually know what the hell I'm talking about), part of what underlies the fierce resentment of many first-generation immigrants (the world over) when their children assimilate to the local culture and choose to be, in many respects, like the dominant culture than like their parents. Very hard not to feel like your own kids are saying, "These people are better than you."

At any rate, whatever the overriding message of today's Islam might be, "You should be more like the infidels," is certainly not it; and if there's a religion that naturally lends itself to respect for those outside of it and appreciation of their finer qualities, Islam is not that religion.

Islam absolutely and uncompromisingly rejects the basic assumptions of European naive multiculturalism. In so doing it exacerbates the divide between the Europeans-in-power and the Muslims-under-their-feet. And by saying further that the very moral order of the world gives Muslims the right to impose their will on others rather than vice versa, it exacerbates the natural human bitterness that already exists in anybody who is kept in an inferior position by government force either direct or indirect. Not to mention the natural human bitterness felt by anyone who has to deal with Frenchmen on a regular basis... ;-)

[sigh] I suppose now is a somewhat inappropriate time for teasing Frenchmen, as much fun as that undeniably is. Very well, I shall reluctantly impose upon myself a temporary moratorium...

[North by Northwest]

Semanticleo,

You've hit the nail on the head: Alexandra did write:

... and to a lesser extent here in the US.

But of course, all eyes were and still are on the events unfolding in France. It's well worth following Amir Taheri and his writing here.

Let's be clear: this isn't an attempt to demonize Islam at large. But it sure would be foolish to brush these events off as an isolated incident; to pretend they are unrelated to the propaganda and impact of militant Islamic doctrine. As Taheri concluded: "Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for the wrong reasons."

[Semanticleo]

Alexandra;

You've thrown a lot of bombs in this post and I don't have much experience with triage, but let me see if the patient is salvageable.

First, it is a given that there are muslim extremists.

Second, there are forces at work to recruit young muslims into the cadres of the extremists.

However ,The presumption that all muslims want to either convert, or exterminate all non-believers is simply not true.

I happen to have experience with a variety of cultures in the work I do. One of the predominent ones I deal with are emigres from the middle east. Syrians, Jordanians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Egyptian merchants comprise about 60% of my contacts, the majority, of which, are Muslim. Some are Christian.

Most of them have little interest in politics. They are mainly interested in making a living. To me, that is the predominent interest of people everywhere. Oh, they have political views, but they are generally reluctant to share them out of fear.
They do not fear discussing it because they think the US government is going to strike them. The culture they come from is one that makes it inherently dangerous to voice opinions that may be offensive to those in power. They simply have not shaken that reluctance. Gradually, they do open up when they sense it is ok. They want freedom to do what everyone else wants to do. Make a living, raise their children with a good education.

They do not seem militant or agressive or offended that I am not a muslim. They seem happy to discuss their beliefs, but do not force the issue if you say 'enough'

Although you reference the WSJ article "Why they don't riot..."
it's as though you did not read what clearly disputes your premise;

"This brings us to the notorious dilemma 'what was first, the chicken or the egg': What fundamental reason is causing the failure to integrate? Is it the ingrained spurn of Western societies, which are equated with Christian religion, or is the experience of being rejected by equally suspicious Western societies? Moreover, would anything change if by some miracle, Western societies wholeheartedly embrace Muslim communities? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding NO. Again, therein lies the crux of the matter."

The European culture of half days and interminable vacation time has not created the same entreprenurial opportunities that exist in the US. Hence, frustrated youth seeking an outlet finds the welcome arms of the understanding Islamic exremists, who are more than eager to take advantage of the dead-end kids who have no economic future. Do you see the difference? To lump all muslims into the same sink of radicalism is to miss the point of human nature. Radical Islam should not be the only option for these kids. If it remains their only venue, things will get worse.

[sigmund, carl and alfred]

Great post, if for no other reason that you force necessary and basic comparisons.

The formula for economic or social success is clear- and it has been repeated by waves of immigrants. To expect that we now accomodate this intolerant wave of new immigrants is preposterous.

Your remark, "Most Muslim immigrants left their homeland indoctrinated with anti-Western sentiment; Western societies being largely equated with Christian faith. We are the Infidels. Morally corrupt. Materialistic. Doomed," is an intersting one. There is another more pointed observation that can be drawn.

Muslim immigrants not only come to the west with the attitudes you describe, but with more. They are coming from societies where they are a majority. Not only are they used to being a majority (and thus their beliefs and ideas go unquestioned, and their will can be imposed as they see fit), they are in a position where they are minority- and an equal among equals! For many that is intolerable.

I recall talking to a gentleman in France, who was absolutely outraged at America and the west- for allowing Jews as equals! The very idea was beyond his comprehension- an insult to Muslims. He, as many others, were taught in the natural superiority of Muslims. The notion of earning credibility and being recognized on the basis of merit threatens many Muslims. It calls into question fundamental beliefs- and demands of them measurable accountability- a frightning and unnatural notion to many.