If Israel Is The Tumor Then Iran Is The Metastasizing Cancer Part I

'The Metastasizing Cancer Cell'

THIS POST WILL BE UPDATED THROUGHOUT THE DAY

If "Israel is the Tumor", as is claimed according to the hysterical and deranged "Thug-In-Chief" Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, then Iran is the Cancer and it's metastasizing.

The Thug-In-Chief recently called for Israel to be wiped off the map, moderated his position. In a spirit of statesmanlike compromise, he now wants Israel wiped off the map of the Middle East and wiped on to the map of Europe.

The perfect solution to the "Middle East peace process": out of sight, out of mind. And given that Ahmadinejad's out of his mind, we're already halfway there.

From the equally delusional Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi: "I'm surprised that the Europeans cannot tolerate others' opinions. They are used to talking and want others to listen to them," Really.

What I want to ask my fellow Americans and Europeans is this: are you happy to help direct the world's fury at the only country in the Middle East whose civilization even remotely resembles yours? And are you sure that the fate of Israel has no bearing on your own? In Iran, the new President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad makes the link. The battle over Palestine, he says, is "the prelude of the battle of Islam with the world of arrogance", the world of the West. He is busy building his country's nuclear bomb:

"ISRAEL’S armed forces have been ordered by Ariel Sharon, the prime minister, to be ready by the end of March for possible strikes on secret uranium enrichment sites in Iran, military sources have revealed.

The order came after Israeli intelligence warned the government that Iran was operating enrichment facilities, believed to be small and concealed in civilian locations.

Iran’s stand-off with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) over nuclear inspections and aggressive rhetoric from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, who said last week that Israel should be moved to Europe, are causing mounting concern.

The crisis is set to come to a head in early March, when Mohamed El-Baradei, the head of the IAEA, will present his next report on Iran. El-Baradei, who received the Nobel peace prize yesterday, warned that the world was “losing patience” with Iran.

A senior White House source said the threat of a nuclear Iran was moving to the top of the international agenda and the issue now was: “What next?” That question would have to be answered in the next few months, he said.

Defense sources in Israel believe the end of March to be the “point of no return” after which Iran will have the technical expertise to enrich uranium in sufficient quantities to build a nuclear warhead in two to four years.

“Israel — and not only Israel — cannot accept a nuclear Iran,” Sharon warned recently. “We have the ability to deal with this and we’re making all the necessary preparations to be ready for such a situation.”

Iran denies, no surprises there.

If one stands back from the moral argument that rages round Israel, and just looks at this as a story, it reminds one intensely of that of ancient Israel's enemy, the Roman republic. An austere nation builds its power in the face of enemy neighbors. It does so by great feats of arms, and so its soldiers often become its political leaders. The commitment those leaders must give to the nation is absolute, lifelong, life-threatening. The deeds done in the nation's defense are frequently brave, sometimes appalling. Some would see Sharon as Milosevic, but might he not be Caesar?

But there's also an important difference from Rome: the purpose of victory has been more about security than conquest for its own sake. Israeli politics for the past dozen years has been the attempt to reconcile extrication from territory with security. That is what Sharon thinks about all the time, as did his Labour predecessors, Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak.

The American Thinker is not impressed, and does not believe: "..attacking Iran’s dispersed, multiple nuclear facilities, many of them underground, in no way compares to Israel’s air campaign in 1967 to knock out aircraft parked out in the open.  That such a comparison would come from a supposedly knowledgeable intelligence source renders this article suspect.”

In a weak attempt to lull us into a false sense of security, and curb our oposition to it's atomic program, Iran offers the U.S. a business deal. Heh.

"Iran opened the door Sunday for U.S. help in building a nuclear power plant a move designed to ease American suspicions that Tehran is using its nuclear program as a cover to build atomic weapons.

The offer, which did not seem likely to win acceptance in Washington, was issued as Israel said it had not ruled out a military strike against Iranian nuclear facilities."

Professor Bainbride quotes George Perkovich and Silvia Manzanero essay in Getting Ready for a Nuclear Iran who makes a persuasive case that there are significant limitations on the ability of even the US to resolve Iran's nuclear program militarily

Hugh Hewitt sends a chill running through my spine, and I still feel the shudders in my body as I am sharing it with you now:

"On March 7, 1936, "a small token of German troops paraded across the Rhine bridges at dawn...and entered the demiliterized zone," wrote William Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. "As [General] Jodl testified at Nuremberg, 'Considering the situation we were in, the French covering army could have blown us to pieces.'"

"It could have," concluded Shirer, "and had it, that almost certainly would have been the end of Hitler."

We are approaching such a moment."

There is no quick military fix to the ever growing problem of Iran, and the Islamofascist movement their Thug-In-Chief President tirelessly spreads;  but if we do not help Israel stop Iran from going nuclear, it will be the last Chamberalinean move we will get to make.

Very good article from The National Review 'Israel vs. Iran':

"Still, the question remains, why is little Israel being left to fight the world's war? The answer is not just that life's unfair. The real answer is that the enlightened post-modern European refusal to lift a finger — let alone a gun — to defend itself is consigning us all to a dark age of terrorism and war."

LINKS WILL BE UPDATED THROUGHOUT THE DAY Memeorandum, Powerline.  ProfessorBainbridge.com, Mark in Mexico, TigerHawk, Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler, Ace of Spades HQ Tammy Bruce, Unclaimed Territory, The American Thinker, Daily Pundit, Ace of Spades HQ, Decision '08 NewsHog Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler  The English Guy,  Scaramouche, American Future

UPDATE WEDNESDAY. DEC 14TH: President Ahmadinejad said today again that "the Holocaust is a "myth" that Europeans have used to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world."

Michelle Malkin points us to a great find at Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld & Gen. Paul Vallely who explain: Iranian Intentions and my friend @ Regime Change Iran has the latest.

The Anchoress has some wise words:

"I have no doubt that many, many liberals, many Democrats and many on the left deplore the words coming from Iran. I hope they will speak up, ready to unite - suggesting that while there is much about which right and left disagree, on this there can be only unity - The holocaust was no myth. Think about it. This cannot be a left/right issue."

From Robert Spencer @  The Jihad Watch quoting a great article from Paul Sperry @ The Front Page.
'The Pentagon Breaks The Islam Taboo'.

Another great not to be missed post from Baron Bodissey @ The Gates of Vienna:  'The Ahmadinejad's Kampf'

Read my related articles: 'The Enemy Within', Extraction of The Stone Of Iranian Madness The Jihad Apocalypse

Linked to The Right Nation

Comments

[Stefan]

You are right to be disgusted Jess. This is a great example of the story being "written" before it was written, so to speak. The NYT knew what story it wanted and it shoehorned information into it. They thought some of the quotes from an “actual” dead soldier would fit nicely and the rest was discarded as being not on topic. Tragic.

[spiritofecstasy]

Guest and others,

I have become very tied up in the last 24hrs with no end in sight yet. So my comment is brief and not to the points I was thinking about in relation to Islamic satans and anti-Christs.

I do agree that Leftists promote certain ideas and become another defacto front for the totalitarian opponents/enemies.

[sigmund, carl and alfred]

See The Trial of Man God and the Rest of Us
and
360 Degrees of Hate

[Pat]

Dr. Sanity trackback: We Are Approaching A Moment...

[Stefan]

NxN,
You are exactly right there. If one reads the speeches of the old guard Democrats you'd think they were Republicans these days. This was before the "revolutionary" boomers took over. They sadly see every move the US makes throught the filter of Watergate and Vietnam.

[North by Northwest]

When is anybody reminding the Democrats of their fine heritage personified in JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner".

Without that sentence and stubborn persistence to maintain Berlin as the outlier during the cold war, Reagan could not have finished the job.

Guest, thank you for reminding us of the importance of Israel being yet another such strategic outlier in the current battle of wills. Never forget what would have been had this fine Democrat not had the foresight and will to protect West Berlin and thus pave the way for change, surely just as unimaginable then as it may seem to us now.

[Avi Green]

What makes Ariel Sharon's argument that Iran is a threat a failure is the fact that he's not taking convincing steps to defend Israel on the homefront, against Kassam rockets being fired by the Hamas from Gaza. The IRIS Blog's got a whole topic on the subject today, of how the al-Aqsa brigades launched a Kassam rocket at a suburb near Afula. And it's all the fault of Sharon, of course.

Whether or not Israel will deal with the problem though, Iran's nuclear experiments are most definately a threat, and must be stopped somehow.

[sigmund, carl and alfred]

First things first. Alexandra, you said, "Democracy always has a price, and more than often that price includes human sacrifice. But more importantly the world is made up of voyeurs of democracy or otherwise."

In fact, every single democracy is built with the blood of patriots. Every single tyranny is built with the blood of those who defied that tyranny, whether that defiance was real or not.

The Arab and Muslm world want freedom- they just don't want to have to pay for it.

That ties in with Professor Guest's remarks. As she notes, Muslim supremacism precludes them from having to pay that price- indeed, the benefits of western civilization are owed to Muslims, in their opinion. There is no notion of equality at all.

That is why so many Muslims have trouble adapting to western values. Firstly, for the first time in their lives, they are not in the majority (and thus precluded from the superiority that implies) and more importantly, they are equal to everyone else- a great shock to many Muslims. Their 'superiority' is not acknowledged or even recognized. They are at no advantage and start at the same starting line as everyone else- including Jews and Christians. If they are not successful, one can only imagine the bitterness and hate.

In any event, it bears remembering that Iran has far more to lose, in a way, than even Israel, in the event of a nuclear exchange.

'Never Again!' is a lot more than a slogan to the Israelis.

Iran would be reduced to a glass parking lot, if the unthinkable were to become a reality. Iran cannot afford to escalate the threats to a point where they are expected to actually to 'deliver'.

[spiritofecstasy]

Thank You Guest. Very Much. I will return to this thread in time, after allowing time to embrace my present thoughts.

Thanks Again

[jeff stiles]

"Remember, Osama b. Ladin's original declaration of war had nothing to do with Israel; he just added it after, taking his cue from Western commentators, because he knew he could only gain adherents in the West by jumping on that bandwagon...:

An excellent observation, Guest.

Osama and Saddam and the Palestinians have sought to gain grassroot political support for their terrorist causes by appealing to what they whine is their state of oppression -- when, as you have noted, their actual goal is worldwide domination over all us "infidels." They have been very successful in working with their liberal sympathizers on this side of the ocean to frame the debate in the MSM, and it will therefore be very difficult to overcome that bias.

[Guest]

Dear Spirit of Ecstasy,
Yes, there is a Devil, called by various names (Shaytan, Iblis) ; there is even, believe it or not, an Antichrist (the Dajjal). When they refer to America as "The Great Satan", they employ the word "shaytan" (obviously derived from Hebrew "satan").
No, the problem is an existential one, not a political one: Islam is, according to the Muslim, the perfect expression of God's will for mankind, and the Muslim world is therefore supposed to be in a position of authority. It is hard for a Westerner, particularly one from a cold climate, to understand just how much of a cultural sensitivity there is to perceived "humiliation" and issues of "honor" and face. It is instructive to see what an enormous place the publishing of cartoons about Muhammad in a Danish newspaper takes up in the public discourse of Muslim societies, in contrast to the complete ignoring of this issue- and the Muslim reaction to it- in the Western press.
The only explanation for this disparity is either that the Western press is trying not to make the Muslims look too totalitarian and unsympathetic, or else that it simply cannot bring itself to take the public outrage seriously. There is indeed a real clash of civilizations; and, while Israel makes a very convenient scapegoat, it is obviously not the cause- nor even the focus- of Muslim supremacism. Remember, Usama b. Ladin's original declaration of war had nothing to do with Israel; he just added it after, taking his cue from Western commentators, because he knew he could only gain adherents in the West by jumping on that bandwagon...

[spiritofecstasy]

Guest-s,

I am glad that someone made mention of "little satan" and "big satan." The obvious question; over millenias, when is anyone "else" not satan to the Mohammeds? Isn't it three positions; either Mohammed, or slavery, or death?

So then Jewish people were not "satanesque" when they were a minority oppressed. Now that the Jewish State exists the Mohammeds scream; "satan."

Does Islam actually represent, in any of it's tome, a Christian-like satanic figure? Antithesis of G-d? The Devil? Or is it all for (and from) aljazeera and reuters' headlines that they shout satan?

-0-

Islam about the Sword?

Same AK-47, different day, different uniform.

All entities are capitalistic. Capital is power. The USSR was a form of capitalism where nothing could really flow to the collective. All of the rewards were at the top. Never at the bread lines and gulags.

Islam is the same.

Follow the money. Who has the money/power to promote the Mohammed ideology as it exists now? How much of that money/power flows to the collective? And how do the Mohammed elites compare to the lessors such as non-Jordanian-Arab/Palestinians and other low peers?

Islam is the same as the USSR, all rewards are at the top. abuse is at the bottom. abuse that breeds abuse.

The same gun as the same symbol.

The West does not give it away though. The West offers the individual an opportunity, a chance. A chance which can easily be squandered. Of course if one wastes opportunity in the West there is the chance for redemption and another opportunity.

These opportunities do not exist where the gun is the AK-47. The nature of these systems won't allow a lack of abuse.

There is probably a primordial pattern in all of this but we shall not speak of such until the bombers stop bombing. Ahmadinejad, and similar type characters, are proof that they won't stop bombing...

Arab/Persian/Islamic/Muslim (a/p/i/m) guerilla warfare against civilians (and everyone else) has absolutely nothing to do with Israel. Jewish Israel is the ploy used by a/p/i/m elitists, it is their excuse, deception. taqiyah (sp?). It maintains their status quo. Ironically, it seems to a ploy used by some in the West too...

Personally I do not think "it" was ever about hating Jewish people. I think it is just the primitive instinct to take advantage where it can be found. An amoral advantage can always be found in targetting a minority. history rewrites that story endlessly.

[Alexandra]

Stefan,
I just finished reading the Link you sent me. WOW! It is an incredible insight and I shall put it into the main text. Thanks.

[Guest]

NB: One thing I forgot to mention is that the Western civilization-Israel connection also works the other way: that is, Israel is seen as an outpost of the West in the Middle East, and a much smaller and less mighty opponent than the US colossus. The US itself among more militant Muslim circles is frequently referred to as "the second 'Ad" ('Ad being a mysterious and wicked people mentioned twenty times in the Qur'an, who were destroyed by God for their sins).
This reading of Western civilization, and America as its prime representative, with Israel being merely its local agent and representative, is what the Iranians mean by their consistent references since the Islamic Revolution to America as "the Great Satan" while Israel is merely the "Little Satan." Anyone who thinks that the jihad would end with the destruction of Israel is much mistaken...
Guest

[Guest]

Alexandra, I think your analysis was good and astute; there is much to add, of course, but since time is limited I'll just take up a few issues:
1)I'd very much like to take up one of your points (Israel being seen as an outlier of the West) because I think you and your readers couldn't realize just how true this is; all the Muslim writers, Jihadists, apocalypticists, etc. make this quite clear. Since the Muslim world believes that the Russian Czarist forgery "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is an authentic historical document (a national museum in Egypt exhibits this work alongside the Talmud as a primary Jewish text!), they see America as the foremost "Zionist entity," completely dominated by sinister Jewish conspiratorialists, and the real source of power of "World Jewry." I highly recommend Professor David Cook's book "Contemporary Muslim Apocalyptic Literature," (Syracuse University Press, 2005)since he reads and quotes from the Muslim fever swamps.
2) About Ahmadinejad's intended audience: it was obviously the broader Muslim world, since he chose the venue of the OIC for his pronouncements. Note the thundering silence of the other 50 Muslim nations- obviously, he made them look lily-livered by comparison. The Iranians have been highly successful at winning influence inside the Arab and Muslim world- among Sunnis, mirabile dictu!- by taking the lead in spewing Israel hate-speech and actions (think Hizbullah and its connections with Palestinian Islamic Jihad). Another point to take into consideration are the increasingly vociferous anti-Israel and anti-Semitic voices, in Europe in particular, which give encouragement to Iranian and Muslim aspirations to perpetrate a second Holocaust. All one need do is look at the farcically-named "Durban COnference on Racism," or the UN's behavior and statements, including the now-infamous photo of Kofi Annan taken on the UN's "Palestine Day," in which Israel was literally wiped off the map. When they hear the French ambassador to England refer to Israel as "that shi--y little country," and see British newspapers openly advocating Israel's destruction, they draw the logical conclusion that no particularly ontoward consequences would result from their making good on all this incitement.
3) What no one has yet mentioned here are some of Ahmadinejad's- and Khamenei's- other triumphalist statements. The Iranians have long said that a few nuclear bombs on Iran would still leave an awful lot of Muslims in the world- even in Iran- whereas one nuclear bomb on Israel would render the state completely unviable, since most of its population would have been already wiped out. Iran would gain enormously in stature in the Muslim world if they could pull such a thing off, even if it meant the deaths of several million Iranian "martyrs."
Given all of the above, Israel obviously has to go in there if the US won't. The problem is that, unlike the Osirak bombing in 1981, it would a)probably require ground troops as well; b)require a large number of planes- much larger than the Osirak business- because Iran is on alert and waiting for such a thing. Also, Israel as a state would have to be able to survive such an attack: that is, it could not send all of its fighter planes over, because it could not afford to be left exposed and defenseless if too large a proportion of its air force were shot down. Logistically, there are other nightmares involved: A)Israel's planes would need to fly around Arabia, and refuel at least once each way- and the more planes there are, and the farther one must fly, the greater the chance of detection. Also, since the US is very much present both on land and sea in the Gulf area, what would happen when they detected the Israeli force? Would they shoot them down? Would a Muslim sympathizer notify the Iranians or some other Arab country which would then put the Iranian on alert?
b) The Iranians deliberately built many of their facilities under densely populated areas, and especially under buildings that would make Israel look like the international villain if those were destroyed: hospitals, old age homes, etc. Could you imagine what a field day the UN would have after an Israeli strike ended up causing collateral damage among Iranians (from Iranian nuclear fallout or from the Israeli explosives) in the tens or even hundreds of thousands?
4) Note the Iranian testing yesterday of its land-sea missile. israel's second strike capability is based upon its 3 Dolphin submarines; Iran is obviously aiming to neutralize that capability as well.
5) Note Israel's testing a few weeks ago of the Arrow anti-missile defense system. The big question is, how reliable is that system? If it only intercepts, say, 9 out of 10 missiles, that is not good enough. And, of course, "Star Wars" technology would be no help at all if the Iranians were simply to give a nuclear weapon to Hizbullah to launch from Lebanon or, even simpler, to hand over to a Palestinian suicide bomber to detonate in downtown Tel Aviv.
In short, Israel really has no choice, and I think the Iranians know this. No matter what happens, they will come out looking like winners in the strange calculus of the Muslim world and the international treatment of Israel as "the Jew among nations." If they manage to get the bomb and wipe out Israel, as they have so kindly informed everyone that they intend to do, they are the heroes of the Islamic world. If Israel attacks them, the UN and Europe will surely make political hay out of the inevitable civilian casualties sitting on top of those nuclear installations, perhaps even crippling Israel so much by international sanctions that she can then be finished off by conventional methods. Any way you slice it, the Iranians gain politically by such a conflict.
Remember, none of the wars the Arabs began with Israel, with the possible exception of the actual 1948 war around Israel's declaration of independence, made sense in the eyes of secular Westerners who think Muslim values must surely resemble those of the denizens of Cambridge, Massachusetts. Obviously, if one changes the values, the political calculations shift accordingly.
Sorry for the length of the post!
Yours,
Guest at the Feast

[jeff stiles]

Excellent points, Alexandra the Great.

I can already hear the liberals complaining that the upcoming Iraqi elections were not successful enough, or that the price of a gallon of gasoline is too expensive, or that the rate of economic growth is not enough, or that the unemployment rate is too high, or that our troops over in Iraq don't have enough body armor, or that we need more troops in Iraq, or that we need less troops in Iraq, or that there were too many hurricanes this year, and on and on and on and on . . .

But for each of these issues, I'm sure they can point to not one blasted thing they have ever done to help affect real change. Except bitch and moan that the ones doing all the work have done it wrong.

What a sad state to be in: reactionary and pessimistic and sad all the time.

[Alexandra]

Patrick,

Something else springs to mind, if too many people try to climb onto the raft, it very quicky sinks and those on it all end up in water. To make matters worse the ones watching from the safety of the shores are discouraged from getting a raft of their own and setting off into the water.

Democracy always has a price, and more than often that price includes human sacrifice. But more importantly the world is made up of voyeurs of democracy or otherwise. They watch the so called doers who have made the raft with their bare hands and endlessly complain how the raft is not big enough, not strong enough, how not enough have been included on board, how it's uncomfortable, unsafe...and most of all if something indeed does go wrong as it invariably does, they cannot wait to say "I told you so!"

[patrick]

With Mecca being THE holy site and he being the protector, I think the aging King Abdullah might be trying to consolidate Islam as a lasting legacy. This could be a good thing in the right hands.

With your forbearance, I would like to mis-apply a quote here about forms of government.

Monarchy is like a splendid ship, with all sail set; it moves majestically on, then it hits a rock and sinks for ever. Democracy is like a raft. It never sinks but, damn it, your feet are always in the water. (Fisher Ames, 1758-1808)

Right now Islam is a raft. Everyone can claim that someone's actions are not true islam but all of Islam will still be guilty by association. If Islam were to become a "splendid ship", it would become a very powerful force, hopefully for good. It could quickly change the course it is on or get everyone's feet out of the water rabid fanaticism.

Let's face it, nuts will always be nuts in whatever religion they were brought up in. It would be nice if there were a heirarchial elder who could actually say with authority, OBL is nuts and is not Islam. On the other hand, it would be bad for that one authoritative figure to order jihad against say, Israel, or the US.

On the other hand, if that were the case, and Islam is truly about the sword, we would have a recognizable target to service... I do not think that a unified Islam would ever be able to act that way becase of today's interdependence.

[Stefan]

Ahmadinejad must be confident about his hold on power for the present since he left the country to go to Mecca. Most dictators don’t ever go on vacation!! He must still have the support of the clerics or else he has another power base.

[Huan]

btw2: Saddam did not want to conquere Iran, he just wanted the oil fields around the delta waterways.

[Huan]

The current situation in Iran is pretty typical of Middle Eastern history. Every so often the current power is over thrown. The drive in such revolution is almost always disguised as religious, that the current "caliph" has lost God's support. Truth is it is always eco-political but lets leave that aside for a bit. What happens next then is that the clergy initially assume power. But there are always neighbors and relatives who are upset by the change of status quo in who has power, so then the clergy are besieged. Then they will need warriors of faith to defend the new movement. If they are successful, then the clergy remain in power, but only for a while. The clergy always think the warriors will remain subservient and faithful. Sooner of later the warriors of faith will assume more and more power until they are the defacto ruler. Surprisingly, most soldiers of faith are from lowly backgrounds, even slaves. Wikipedia "Mamluks."
What is playing out in Iran is that the clergy is losing power to the soldiers. The new president is purging all levels of the government from mayors on up into the bureaucracies. And to justify his action he will manufacture a military threat to do so. Thus I do not see this as a religious issue, just a power monger rise to power classical style. I wonder how the Iranians will react.
Once Assad's power is broken, then all attention will turn to Iran. They know this is coming soon and are preparing for it. Good that we have 150,000 troops next door (Iraq and Afghanistan) and a friendly Pakistan. Interesting how porous the border is between Iraq and Iran. I doubt it will be a stand up conflict.
Just my opinion.

Btw, the Arabs had no problem conquering the Persians (nor did Alexander the Great) because there is little natural defensible terrain barriers. But then the Persians also softened the Islam they adopted. Remember there is the Book and then there is practive by the Book.

[Liquid]

There is no doubt about the forked tongue issue and it's common knowledge to pay close attention on what is "not implied" or "not said" as perhaps that is where the truth of intent might lie. I noticed even Hossein mentions this in one of his interviews.

From Hossein Derakhshan's blog "Iran has completely become a dysfunctional system and Khamaeni's strange paranoia that crushed reform is directly responsible for that. The recent disasterous event show that Iran is collapsing in terms of management and day-to-day matters. It's ironic that amid all these terrible news, Ahmadinejad is in Mecca, doing his religious services"

You can catch what he says in this interview with him on Rocket Boom

[patrick]

These are university people with family still in Iran. They do travel back and forth and so do their families. Although they do have to go to Oman to get Visas. One was actually born here in the USA while her parents were getting their degrees.

Some might stay, some might return to teach in Tehran when they finish their graduate degrees. From our discussions, life is much easier here than at home, however Iran is still home to them and always will be. These are not ex-pats.

Of course, I have never been gauche enough to try to pin down their exact political views of certain members of the government. This is what they have volunteered in friendly conversations. They are proud of being Persian, but would like more of the freedoms we have. They do not like the corruption and gifting to the "party elite" where everyone else must work 3-4 times as hard for half of what the elite are given. Have's and Have Nots yet again.

[Stefan]

Saudi Royalty is very difficult to pin down. They have been the biggest exporters radical pan-Arab tracts (and still are) while they are also the targets of the radical Islamic terrorists who see them as illegitimate and corrupt (which is quite true but they are a lesser of two evils I guess). They really know how to do one thing and that is to look out for themselves. I know they have really made an effort to destroy terrorist cells in the Kingdom but I don’t know of how much of this is for their own internal security and how much is to show that they are on our “side” at least to some extent for business purposes. Until they stop disseminating and tacitly supporting the literature and language that fuels Islamo-Fascism I don’t know how seriously to take them. One of the problems in the Arab world is that regimes will say one thing in English for American and European consumption and then say the opposite in Arabic to their own people. As for a single seat for the center of the Islamic world it would have to be Mecca I would assume but while Protestants and Catholic (despite some fringe groups) understand that when push comes to shove we are all Christians and confess the same God I don’t see this within Islamic sects and am not sure that there is any short term hope for reconciliation. Except if Iraq is successful and the Sunnis begin to feel some national loyalty to the Shiite and the Shiites, in turn, learn to forgive and (God willing) trust the Sunni. This could then be the catalyst for a new page in the history of Islam. If we TRULY believe that self-determination is the most healthy and peaceful way to structure societies then we must have faith that (if we get through these birthing pains) Iraqis will flourish. If they flourish then they will have a chance at real peace, which scarcely anyone living there now can remember. If there is a peaceful, stable, and representative Iraqi state (which was assisted by the USA who proceeded to LEAVE which no superpower in history has ever done) then what happens to the anger that is preached by fascist Islam? It wouldn’t quite ring the same way anymore would it? This is the soil that an Islamic reformation would be planted in. Sistani (sp?) is handling things pretty well right now. He could have made this impossible if he wanted to. By refusing to endorse any list he is doing a great service to his people.

[North by Northwest]

Patrick - do your Iranian friends maintain regular contact at 'home'? Are they regularly traveling back and forth and have thus a first-hand insight?

Your characterization of your Iranian friends certainly matches every experience I have had with Iranians I have met, although all of them basically considered their lives to be in exile as they were prohibited from any travels to Iran whatsoever. They were mostly banned due to their close affiliation to the Shah and his regime.

[patrick]

Stefan,

Islamic Reform...what are your thoughts on Saudi King Abdullah and his precis on reforming Islam (under his watchful eye of course). I will need to relook his points, but the most interesting to me was the prevention of just any "learned scholar" issuing fatwas. I wonder where the seat of centralized Islam would sit?

How would this be good for western society, and how would this be bad?

[North by Northwest]

Liquid - thanks for both links - brilliant stuff; so that's what drives this nut. The plot thickens when you consider, that Hitler was obsessed with varying forms of occultism. He clearly believed destined to fulfill a divine prophecy. You are right, about learning as much as possible about Islam and Islamic prophecy. If you haven't already, you'll love this essay by a Professor of Islamic Medieval History from Israel which Alexandra posted recently.

Stefan - that backgrounder was one of the most illuminating reads in a very long time. His nephew no less... WOW.

Isn't it a crying shame that this kind of information, put in the correct context, never makes in the MSM; maybe I am being presumptuous, and merely have missed it. But this is critical insight.

[patrick]

You are quite right about Persians not identifying themselves as Arabs and having pride in their place in history and the world today. They are not a minor nation by any means. They have a large population (Tehran itself has a population of over 12,000,000), very defensible terrain (it was the mountain passes that stopped Saddam, not really the quantity and quality of equipment Iran had), and many natural resources (China definately needs their natural resources). Let's not get into their strategic location (Strait of Hormuz).

One problem with the rapid destruction of the Iraqi forces was a substantial blow to middle-eastern prowess/military might. Unsupported personal opinion here, but there is probably an enemy of my enemy acceptance of Iran to stop the spread of the evil western empire. Now, I do not think they would be offered the third cup of welcome coffee by their arab neighbors, but they would get to enter the tent.

Even though Persians are different, I would say that the work I cited earlier is still valid as Islam has a significant impact upon the citizenry. From some of my Iranian friends who are attending school in the US, there is dissatisfaction with the current government along with the corruption. They are proud of their homeland and most were born when there were good relations between the US and Iran. Some of the most intelligent and urbane people I have ever met have been Iranians. That being said, the young unemployed with no time on their hand see what the US and Israelis have and cannot understand why they do not have it (we must be taking their fair share).

Not the corruption I mentioned earlier, but I suggest some of you look into the concept of bagsheesh which is an ingrained part of the regional culture (bribes, finder's fees, call it what you will). It is a system...not a good system, but a system nonetheless.

No doubt the regime has many problems, the question is, when will the citizenry do something about it? Maybe never. The government is trading partners with China, Russia, etc. They also know the EU is antagonistic to the US, and sympathetic to the "Plight of Palestine". Maybe they will be smarter than Saddam...

[Stefan]

NxN,
I share some of your fears. What is really needed in Islam is a reformation. I might seem strange for a Catholic to think reformations are groovy things (and it can be argued that Martin Luther never intended for there to be a schism but that is neither here nor there) but the Protestant Reformation spawned the “Counter-Reformation” which was healthy for Catholicism. Unfortunately, the cellular structure of Islam is not very conducive to a theological “coming-to-grips” with modernity. Islam is not in tune with Christendom’s understanding of a pluralistic society. “The Church never imposes, she only proposes” as JPII said. I think that for this reason we see that the American approach to the Middle East after 9/11 is really the most logical. In order for new more democratic concepts to begin to influence thinkers within Islam they need to experience the benefits of self determination. It will take a while, of course, for there to be a synthesis with Islamic doctrine but now Islam takes a form that mirrors the societal structure under which Islam has been existing. This structure is of course totalitarian. The religio-political state of Islamo-Fascism is actually greatly influenced by Nazism. I recommend reading Rabbi David G. Dalin’s new book “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” which is both a stunning defense of the actions of Pius XII and a history of the history of modern Arab anti-Semitism. He talks in depth about “Hitler’s Mufti”: Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini who is the Godfather of radical Islamic anti-Semitism. This is a quick background if anyone is interested.

[Liquid]

So many people just roll their eyes at the madman, but unfortunately its because they don't understand what is at the core of this deranged mind, even though he has been quite openly arrogant with his intentions. But its much like the dark internal spirit that takes hold of the suicide bombers. It is very strong and very dangerous. Ahmadinejad is on a mission to be the channel to help the return of the 12th Imam and to become 'the hero' that restores Islam to a caliphate domination. People can refuse to believe it but it doesn't matter because Ahmadinejad believes it and he has much support in his islamic world. Make no mistake, his insults and taunts to Israel are very well calculated because he says them with confidence that only a madman's tongue can spew- orchestrated by what he feels is a divine calling. I think it's important to learn as much as one can about Islamic prophecy and then maybe one can get some enlightened insight into how twisted this individual really is and get a glimpse at the path of iman fatal fate he is choosing for Iran.

Check out

According to Shi'ite Muslim teaching, Abul-Qassem Mohammad, the 12th leader whom Shi'ites consider descended from the Prophet Mohammed, disappeared in 941 but will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.

[North by Northwest]

Hi all,

taken from the excellent article in the telegraph (see above link Chamberalinean move) this quote highlights the fundamental difference of Islamist Nations' culture and perception vis-a-vis our own – it makes it almost impossible to approach any analysis through our ‘Western eyes’:

It says that Mohammed was probably illiterate, and that the Koran was therefore dictated by him from memory after he had received it in visions. It is not his teaching: it is the unmediated word of God: "The Holy Koran differs from any other religious text in that it was not written or edited by any human author; no word has been added to it or subtracted from it."

What this means is that all Muslims are what we call "fundamentalist" in a way that no Christian, not even the most literalist, can quite be. One man, the Prophet, was given the perfect truth in one form, and so the truth, and the form, are absolute. To question the status of the Koran as described above is to insult God.

Certain consequences flow. Because Islam sees itself as imposing a political order on the world, it makes enforceable law, including the law of blasphemy.

Nazi Germany happened because (a) the 'mood' was right and (b) thuggish elements of society, who hadn't been given any collective power for many many centuries, suddenly found themselves organized and free to roam. ‘Intellectuals’ simply couldn't see that.

The problem with Islamofascists (the term is in so many ways sooo eerily accurate) is that they are of the same thuggish kind and our Intellectuals from all political walks of life again can't see them for what they are.

Hitler wrote a book telling everybody what he intended - everybody haughtily and arrogantly dismissed him with a scoff.

Not just one, but almost all Islamic leaders, religious and/or political, have been and continuously are telling us what they intend to do. Again, by and large the West haughtily and arrogantly dismiss them all with a scoff. For those who see the danger, and who are crying out in protest and despair, they hold nothing but contempt, labeling them as pitiful hysterics and warmongers.

For all the faults this administration may have committed, what ever ills may have been brushed aside, whatever acts of questionable motivation members of this administration may be guilty of, we all ought to be truly grateful, that we have this administration holding watch. Because, the one thing Bush and Co. are not guilty of is what I term 'Champagne Communism' - responding to the Islamofascists with noble Christian values held high, hoping, nay, expecting the other side to respond in kind. The Nazi thugs didn't and the Islamofaschist sure as hell won't either.

So, what can be done? Is the rhetoric in the Blogosphere any meaningful indication for what ordinary people in the nation, who don't even know what a 'blog' is, really are thinking? How can the hearts and minds be won again? How can the people be reunited in full sight of these real and present dangers?

I am sorry to sound like I am talking at you guys, but following the events during the recent days I have been reading many of the major leftist blogs and it hit me yet again how impossible any effort of building consensus really appears to be. The situation seems almost worse then during pre-war Europe. In addition to ignorance, you have many of the very same thuggish elements ruthlessly manipulating this very ignorance for their own political and power gain. And that is real scary, as people like that always underestimate how quickly their manipulation can take on a dynamic of its own potentially spinning hopelessly out of control, right here on our very doorsteps.

Hey guys, please help me get out of these bleak projections... I mean it!

[Stefan]

The Palestinian state should have been Trans-Jordan. That would have been the most logical solution but it is far too late for that. One thing that western supporters of the PLO and its ilk fail to grasp is that the anger that many Arabs have over the treatment of the Palestinians is a joke. Considering that the Palestinians have been and still are crapped on by those who yell so loudly for their rights is really quite astonishing. The Palestinians are clearly just the means to the end of “pushing Israel into the sea” Most Palestinian refugees are still kept in camps with very limited rights (this varies from country to country) and are not allowed to become citizens anywhere in the Arab world. The Arab league has been instrumental in blocking any integration and keeps demanding that the international community support the refugees. They must keep the Palestinians in “limbo” in order for them to continue to use the “right of return” as a means to re-populate Israel. This is a brutally cynical and self interested tactic. They care nothing for the actual prosperity of these people they are just pawns.
I have a question about Iran for any of you esteemed commentators to answer. Iranians are not Arabs correct? They are Persian and have a very different cultural background and language than those in the rest of the Middle-East correct? As I understand it Iran has had a bit of a rocky relationship with much of the Arab world (the Iran-Iraq war comes quickly to mind) so what is the reaction of the rest of the Arab world to the posturing of a potentially nuclear armed and aggressive Iran? I have heard very little on this matter

[spiritofecstasy]

well Patrick,

glad you mentioned the question; is Ah-mad-in-ejad rhetoric for Iranians or for Westerners or for Asians or for the Middle Easterners or any and all others?

One would say it is curiously for Western populations. The standing information authorities in the West, AP-Reuters-KnightRidder-Etc, carry Iranian threat/scream verbage quite prominently and quite early and often.

I am not posing as a veiled anarchist either. I*Love*Authority*! Especially when it's Cool Authority. In fact one is probably a closet elitist, swear, check my closet, there are septors and stacks of decrees in there. Yet it bothers me that this Iranian figurehead, Ah-mad-in-ejad, is so overthetop. There is something there that a finger cannot be put on...

Ah-mad-in-ejad gets more ink and gigabytes than any other official worldwide. Now he may be wise to read the papers (irony) and see where saddam is hanging out these days but something gave him the stage, the stage we keep and keep seeing him on.

btw, I get high on hierarchies and shameless overthetop puns.

And remember; When addressing anyone, especially a mad dictator, say hi first. As in hi: erarchy.

[patrick]

I apologize. That was rude of me not to cite the links here.

Maslow's Theory: the wiki is quite appropriate.here

Shame vs Blame
Here is another more detailed article than the one I referred to in the other post.

What motivates your actions?

[RC]

Breaking News to islamofascist mullah lunatics:

USAF B-2 and F-117 bombers are undetectable/
invisible to your caveman radar-systems from
the dark-ages, thanks to their Skunk-Works
developed stealth technology. We should give
these anti-semitic, blood-thirsty, and
misogynistic lunatics a firm-deadline
concerning their "peaceful" nuclear program
(they need this "peaceful" source of energy
because they are sitting on top of an ocean
of petroleum & natural-gas). If they don't
obey our deadline, we should use their
nuclear-facilities as a proving-grounds for
our latest: satellite-guided bunker-buster
bombs and "moabs" (mother of all bombs).
Cavemen-islamofasicst-terrorist-thugs don't
understand peacenik diplomacy/appeasement
(case in point, Jimmy Carter and America held
hostage for 444 days).

Maybe it's time that we show them what the
superior, American weapons-systems that were
developed during the Reagan-era are capable
of doing to their "peaceful" nuclear-program.
it was Jimmy Carter who tried to scrap the
B-1 Lancer program; maybe it's time that
we show this failed & "killer-rabbit" phobic
ex-president what this weapon-system is
capable of doing to the regime that he
facilitated in installing in what used to be
America's strongest ally, and strongest
deterrent to the spread of soviet-communism
in that geopolitically important region of
the world. the world doesn't need another
chernobyl-like accident in the Persian Gulf
(this would cripple the petroleum-dependent
economies of many G-8 nations). If this
member of the axis-of-evil doesn't strictly
obey our deadline, we should give them a live
demonstration of the awesome capabilities of
the "Bone", the "Nighthawk", and the
"Spirit"; preceded by a little "softening-up"
by some undetectable Tomahawk cruise-missiles,
and a dozen or so "moabs".

The cavemen-islamofasicst-terrorist-thug
mullahs have demonstrated time-and-time again
that this is unfortunately the only language
that they understand. Carter & Brzezinski
are failed, pathetic, and tragic characters
from history. The Bush-doctrine needs to be
implemented concerning this rogue motherland
of state-sponsored international-terrorism,
that was created by the godfather of
international-terrorism, Ayatollah Khomeini,
and the blood-thirsty executioners of his
close-ally and personal-friend yaser arafart.

USAF Air-Power.

US Naval Trident-sub power.

Operation Shock and Awe.

my suggestion to the mullahs: shave-off your
filthy-beards, remove the hermes-towels from
your lice-infested heads, and leave the
country (your friends in China, Sudan, and
North Korea might welcome you). activating
those Russian-reactors in Bushehr is very
hazardous to you and your evil regime's
longevity.

[patrick]

How much of this rhetoric from Iran is actually aimed at the domestic front, and how much of this is for the world in general?

If we look to Maslow's Heirarchy of needs, many despotic governments intentionally keep their people in stage 1 or 2 (must satisfy physiological needs(food, water, heat) and then safety) before moving up the pyramid to self-actualization. If you keep the majority of the population at those levels, they do not have time to worry about freedom or self-actualization.

North Korea and many nations in africa are quite adept at manipulating this to remain in power.

Before we take this speech at face value, remember the game Saddam played year after year. Many governments use the same anti-semitism to point to an "enemy" the populace is being protected from by the dear father of their government. By being able to force the "Great Satan" of America who is allied with the "enemy" to deal with that nation one-on-one, his relative stature in the region rockets skyward. Many believe Saddam just continually mis-played his poker hand. He achieved his regional aims of becoming a hero in the region to many, but lost it all because we play by different rules than they do. Know your enemy!

Have you every bartered in a souk? There are the insults, the threats, the pursuit, leaving, and returning to gain the item he wants to sell and you want to buy. The interaction for many is often more important than the sale. Money in the pocket is ok, but the story of besting a westerner or meeting a westerner who knows the rules of the game has greater value to many. This relates back to societies which base their relative worth according to their "honor" which is actually their reputation. See the link I provided in the D is for Defeat forum if you are interested about the workings of blame vs shame societies.

What game is Iran playing? Israel must take them at face value as they risk destruction...It is easy for those whose children are not at risk to take time to see how this develops. What gamble would you take with your children?

Is a certain Iranian just trying to gather more power since he swept into office promising a drop in unemployment (currently at 16% of available labor) which he hasn't been able to deliver? He has had to shut down Tehran for several days because the pollution was so bad. As for cheap energy, oil and gas affordability caused this with gas being only about 35 cents a gallon. Nuclear power will be more expensive than other alternatives for quite some time.

Immediate threat? We need to look at when they could deliver a weaponized package and hit a target, instead of a "friend" in the region. I would recommend looking at FAS.Org or other watchdog sites that detail the difficulty in developing and delivering nuclear weapons. Iran has passed some of these gates already, so there is a point of no return coming.

As to a previous post regarding the Germans entering the de-militarized zone, when do you destroy them crossing the bridge, and when do you hope that they take care of the hazard internally. Just some food for thought in this discussion.

[spiritofecstasy]

First of ALL; Arab/Palestine (commonly known as Palestine) is MYTH.

It is so simple to do the MATH.

1000 B.C. David, The Jewish Kingdom of David.

1917 A.D. WWI ends and the League of Nations, representing the Victors(The Allies vs the defeated Axis), partitions the region with the distinct plan to form a Jewish State as the homeland for a minority population surrounded by Arab/Muslim nations.

Sometime thereafter Oil is discovered in the region. The original declartions for a Jewish State are parsed. The resultant State is small and the "few" Arab/Muslims, nomadic or otherwise, who existed in that specific area, without a Kingdom as was David's, will be able, in theory, to live in Trans-Jordan which is today's Jordan.

Eventually the ColdWar Soviets must manipulate the circumstance to gain advantage and that is why Arab/Muslim/Palestians use false-constructs and terms such as OCCUPATION. They were trained by the Soviets. It is a trick. There is no occupation. In fact the State of Israel is probably the least intrusive bordering of a post-war nation that comes to mind. They (Jewish people) have a nearly 6000 year history in just that region. None other than Jewish ever had a Kingdom there and the land was barely populated.

So now, 2005, what we see from this exaggerated fruitcake in Iran is simply a continuation of primordial aggression against a minority. That is; Arab tribe versus Jewish tribe.

Still today the International forces bear down on this region as would a mountain resting over a flower.

The proof that powerful interests heavily influence the region is that the most common use of the term Palestine is false.

And furthermore the most recent expulsion of Israelis from their homes, "the Disengagement", is more proof that the REAL occupation is far from the borders of Israel and Jordan.

It makes no sense for the GOI (Gov't Israel) to be surrounded by violence worshipping enemies and then to abuse their own people.

Arab/Palestine is a myth.

ON THE FLIPSIDE; More curiosity. The Israelis have been KICKING ASS in defensive Wars since 1948. They have defeated the myriad of Arab aggressor states repeatedly. Yet the general agitprop of governments/media displays the situation as totally different. That is; The Agitprop we get fed in the West.

[MarcH]

The American Thinker is spot on regarding Israel's inability to deal with this problem solo. Saul Singer at Jerusalem Post on 12/08/05 (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132475709361&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) has a column with some similar themes, but which also discusses Iran-WMD as a failure of the international collective security system represented by the UN. Singer's column supports Alexandira's apt comparison to 1936 in the Rhineland and the similar failure of the League of Nations.