A Chance For A Better Life

 

Big corporations and the far-left have one thing in common: both like to employ cheap illegal immigrants to do their heavy lifting.

The leftist media have tried to portray this weekend’s massive protests against House measures to curtail illegal immigration as the uprising of “The Other America”: forgotten, humble, hidden Hispanic members of the working poor simply demanding their “rights.” As events spanned from California to Detroit, Phoenix to Washington, D.C., the media kept up its anti-enforcement drumbeat. Although some have credited Latino DJs for the 500,000-strong illegal immigrant turnout in Los Angeles alone – and some credit is deserved – the real legwork was done by a more eclectic group of organizations: leftist labor unions, George Soros-funded agitators, Open Borders lobbyists [...]

Michelle Malkin obtained a copy of a letter Lagrosa wrote Monday to the students of the school district stating LAUSD would chauffeur students to high school after they protested on the freeway. The letter states after the rally, the district “will provide buses to return students to schools when appropriate.”  Moreover, “we will do everything we can to ensure that those students who do leave the campus are supervised as they leave the campus.”

Naturally, the leftist groups, illegals, and teachers unions could count on the media to cover for them. Mickey Kaus pointed out in Slate that the L.A. Times wrapped the protesters in the American flag, erasing all references to the Mexican standard, although the Mexican flag was hoisted at least as often in the crowd as Old Glory.

Gone from the media coverage, too, was mention that these protests had all the hallmarks of leftist riots of bygone days.[...]Michelle Malkin has preserved some of the protestors’ other extremist messages.

This is a tough issue, emotionally charged for some, irrelevant to others and an excuse for the remainder to eagerly pull out the racism card. LA Shawn bloggs on the issue, after she took some tranquilizers:

That takes nerve, mis amigos, gathering in large groups to protest in a foreign country, which you entered in violation of that country’s federal law. Surrounded by law enforcement officials who ought to haul you in and ship you back to the Third World hole from which you came, you’ve got the cojones to demand rights. In my country.

I’ve got your rights right here: You have the RIGHT to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you…

Lord, I hope you haven’t foreordained my election to office. I can see the snipers now, lined up at the windows, ready to strike me down for advocating the immediate deportation of illegal ingrates mocking my country’s laws and giving the American people a collective finger. Dónde está George Bush? Right here.

On an emotional level it is difficult not to sympathize with the President's understanding of the largely Hispanic population who are keen to embrace a better life, and earn $50 rather than 50c. However, whatever the bigger picture, one core problem for the US economy is of course the constant export of US dollars into Mexico, and Latin America by predominantly illegal workers, to their families back home. This net loss of domestic purchasing power and consumption hurts the economy. It would be different on a purely economical level if the illegal immigrants were to re-invest their earnings into US businesses and services; if they sought to build a life and future on American soil. In that instance they would contribute to US economic growth and as such be part of the economic cycle. Because they are  not participating in this way, and inherently obviously not paying any taxes to boot, their activities place a drain on growth.

I discovered a great analysis, on an interactive map of the US, providing The First State-by-State Analysis of US Remittances to Latin America, with the figures from California,Texas, Illinos, Florida and New York alone rising to in excess of $11bil. (click on any state to drill) These figures of course  include immigrants from all South American nations, with one in three being illegal.

The dramatic growth of international remittances is testimony to the hard work and commitment of migrant workers seeking better lives for themselves and their families. It also reflects the increasing integration of labor markets across national borders, as the economies of developed countries require the skills and dedication of workers from other countries.

Nowhere are these trends better illustrated, than in the relationship between Latin America and the United States which constitutes the highest volume remittance market in the world.

But whilst it is seemingly clear that the large corporations and small businesses alike are taking advantage of the undocumented immigrants, by paying them substandard salaries, the illegal immigration issue is not likely to go away with the introduction of the proposed legislation. For no matter what is awaiting for them in Resolution 4437, it is not going to solve the problem of the thousands each year who cross the border, or the 2000 a year who are killed along the way. But it may figure out the answer to the important question and: "the only question—[which] is whether those immigrants will hold primary allegiance to the United States of America, and abjure their allegiance to any foreign power."

Critics of the legislations say that this is an attempt to deport the 12 mil people who are in the US illegally. Proponents say keeping tabs on immigrants is vital to national security. The President obviously echoed that sentiment:

"Part of enforcing our borders is to have a guest-worker program that encourages people to register their presence, so that we know who they are and says to them, 'If you're doing a job an American won't do, you're welcome here for a period of time to do that job.' "

The answer is for Washington to toughen enforcement, penalize employers who hired undocumented workers and make border crossing more costly. Then fewer people will move illegally to America.

Instead, on Monday, the Senate Judiciary Committee passed a bill with a guest-worker program that would allow illegal immigrants to apply for citizenship. Big mistake. If Washington passes an immigration bill that grants citizenship to illegal immigrants and includes a phony temporary guest-worker program -- phony, because there is no way the government can or would remove workers after six years, as one scheme promises -- then the deception will be official. The message Washington will send will resound louder than ever: Forget immigration laws. Legal, illegal, no dif.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, NYT is worried about the GOP loosing the Hispanic vote. Tom Maguire is not impressed. Rick Moran is saddened by the "take back" movement, and California Conservative is debating the citizenship issue. George Will has a sensible solution (except for the idiotic Berlin wall analogy, ahem), with Dafydd reviewing both Will and Ed Morrissey's articles, offering his own views on the analogies given.

Polipundit shows a perfect example of the absurdity of it all, and the Government's poor handling of foreign businessmen, who have less rights than the illegals, and Peggy Noonan has an article about immigrants lacking in patriotic assimilation. Kim Priestap @ Wizbang has more on the Houston principal flying a Mexican flag.

The Washington Times gives the latest on the GOP spitting competition:

"House conservatives yesterday issued a dire warning to President Bush and Republican leadership that they will pay a devastating political price if they proceed with a guest-worker program or anything resembling amnesty for illegal aliens before securing the borders and enforcing existing immigration laws,"

Memeorandum features us here.

The Anchoress has wise words, and believes that solving the illegal immigration dilemma will require the divinely-inspired wisdom of King Solomon: "We cannot comprehend and know what “negatives” of today will become “positives” tomorrow. All we can do is ask for wisdom and direction, come to this problem as honest brokers seeking real, lasting, humane solutions, and then understand that nothing will happen overnight."

Where do you stand on this issue?

UPDATE I: "Tom Tancredo [the Republican congressman] is pulling the immigration debate to the right—and away from Bush", read the Newsweek article, it's interesting.

UPDATE II: Paul Mirenghoff @ Powerline like me, also follows the money:

This income flow also can mean the difference between a collapsed Mexican economy and one that, on the surface, is scraping by. That's why Mexican President Vicente Fox is pressing George W. Bush so hard for amnesty and guest-worker programs. But it doesn't constitute sufficient reason for Bush to accede. As Frum explains:

Today, almost one-fifth of all living Mexican-born people now make their homes in the United States. You have to go back to the Irish potato famine to find a parallel. But Mexico is not suffering famine: It is suffering from a comprehensive failure of political and economic leadership.

Ultimately, then, we do Mexico no service by enabling it to export Mexicans in order to avoid correcting its failed economic policies.

Comments

[Althor]

This morning on Fox & Friends they had one “Mr. Lopez” as a guest, who is one of the major organizers of all those on-going “spontaneous” demonstrations we have witnessed on our television screens in last few days, who appeared to announce an upcoming “Day without illegal immigrants” protest, in which he’s urging all illegal immigrants and their sympathizers, to not go to work, school, or shopping, in the hopes of bringing our economy on that day to a halt, to show the “impact” (especially on our lawns and burger joints) of “deporting” all these illegal immigrants, should our Government choose to “enforce” our present laws, and or enact new ones securing our borders, and criminalizing illegal aliens...as well they should!

Amongst the many off-the -wall, and inaccurate comments made by this Mexican-American (apparently a contradiction in terms judging by his very own behavior) open borders- unfettered illegal immigration (especially from Mexico), Activist, after engaging in an uninterrupted propagandistic harangue in which he kept talking while rudely ignoring the repeated questions by the show’s hosts, he went to say that “there was no difference” between the European Immigrants that came to America during the latter part of the 19th , and the early part of the 20th centuries, and the swarms of illegal immigrants from Mexico flooding over our border now, because he claims, quote: “That the European immigrants that came to the Eastern Seaboard came illegally into the country too, just like the Mexicans”!!!

Can someone please “educate” this gentleman (who apparently must have been smoking “mota”) on “our History,” and remind him that those “huddled masses” that emigrated to America from Europe during the latter part of the 1800s, and during the early 1900s, came here “legally” and were duly processed before being “admitted” to the US?!?! Apparently he’s never heard of “Ellis Island”!!!

He also ranted about that old, worn-out argument “that it was not the illegals’ fault they came,” since we are the ones that had “summoned them” here to do “those jobs Americans won’t do” (I am so sick of that argument, with so many Americans that can’t find a job precisely because these illegal immigrants have taken them away!), and that the reason so many were brandishing Mexican, and other flags, during the demonstrations, was that “...they had been so mistreated and abused, after so many years of being illegally here in America, that they felt disenfranchised and had more loyalty to their Homelands than to America” , which begs the question: Then pray tell us, Mr. Lopez, why all the frantic demonstrations, and why do they keep pouring over our borders through every chink, nook, and cranny, like an infestation of roaches coming out of the woodwork, and they don’t just simply go back, or stay, in their “beloved” countries?!?! What monumental, self-serving, hypocrisy!!!

All throughout the program, and while spewing his inaccurate, false, propagandistic venom, Mr. Lopez’ appearance, demeanor, and body language spoke volumes of the hatred and resentment he obviously seems to feel for America.... sentiments that apparently, as we have witnessed in these demonstrations he has so fervently helped organize, his fellow Mexican, and other Latino, “illegal immigrants” share!!!

And again the question begs asking, if this is not simply the demographic, war-less, invasion of America by these resentful hordes from a foreign country, who believe we stole this, our land, from them, and feel “entitled’ to just come in and take it back from us....what in the hell is?!?!

We better open our eyes, and stem this tide...before it is too late!!!

Althor

[Washington]

Michael:

I shall remove our debate to email if you desire.

[gringoman]

Michael,

If you don't mind, I won't shut up. And even if if you did mind, it would take more than a kvetching nanny, with a boorish mouth to boot--of the American or Euro variety---to shut me up. When one laments what's happened to the European species, and it's readiness to slouch and stumble into the sunset with a well-fed, allegedly sophisticated grin on its face, one can still take heart that a few spirited ones have somehow survived. And fortunately there are some, like Alexandra, who--thank the gods---have left, and helped to enrich a New World that needs their enrichment.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Washington

Ahhh aren't we funny? Well, you are showing that the reason for your under the belt remarks are the result of anger, for me calling you out on different occasions on DB and when you tried to diss Alexandra.

Thankfully there is no need for me to talk to myself.

As you might notice there are differences. For instance I ám saying to the 2 idiots to ´shut up´. However, I am not encouraging Alexandra to ban them, or to even edit their posts. In fact, if she would do such a thing, I would defend their right to insult me and other Europeans. I would, however, also defend my right to tell them to shut up.
So the situation is somewhat different. They are idiots in my book, but I will not call them trolls or something like it in a pathetic attempt to get them banned from this beautiful blog.

Besides that I do not think you want to get into an argument with me about freedom of speech now do you.

If you want to debate / talk about this in a more personal manner, feel free to send me an e-mail

[Washington]

Michael:

Why should he shut up? I thought you believed in a free exchange of ideas. That is how you approach DB.

I also happen to believe America is the best country in the world. There is nothing wrong with that belief. I have many firends in Europe who fee their country is the best place in the world. We are adults and live with each others opinions.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Washington; good point ;) I meant that the European nations and the US should be befriended.

Gringo:
just shut up. You traveled to Europe? Well good for you.
Funny is that you do not know anything about me, nor whether or not I acknowledge certain problems in Europe and what my take on those problems are. You made that very clear in your last post. Maybe you should ask other people who could know.

My difficulty with you is that you seem to somehow believe that America is the best country in the world and Europe is unable to fight its own problems. Thus you insult an entire continent at one freaking time.

Really, just shut up.

[gringoman]

Patrick.

Yes, of course I was referring to American "initiative" as exemplified by ancestors who made the momentous decision--and it surely in many cases was momentous--to take themselves and often family too across the sea to a New World. Michael, thinking he senses Europhobia here--and being totally ignorant of my own travels and the delights I once took all over Europe--feels a need to stress the poverty and criminality among the immigrants. And that's fine with me. It doesn't sound like he's gotten to Australia, with his sensitivity to the "cocky" etc. Today the Aussies will tell you proudly about their "criminal" ancestors. Also, I could take Michael a little more seriously if instead of only groaning about America not acknowledging its debt to Europe, he would acknowledge--as I previously tried to get him to, without success---Europe's debt to Greece and Rome. Sure, Thomas Jefferson traveled to Paris, but even a sophomore understands that Rome gave far more to the U.S. constitution than contemprorary Europe did. The Founding Fathers depended on Cicero and Polybius, not Voltaire or Diderot. The French even fell in love and awe with some "primitive" Americans, such as Ben Franklin, who startled "sophisticated" Europe. But I love Beethoven, Mozart and Johann Sebastian Bach too much to let a contemporary European annoy me. If he wishes to dissolve painlessly into what's coming, whether it's Eurabia, a spicy post-European multi-culty souffle, or as a protectorate of the nuclear mullahs, or something the eliteniks haven't quite figured out yet, that's his business. Good luck to him. Instead of snickering at cowboys, he might learn to enjoy bowing to caliphs. After all, it happened to Europeans long before they even understood what Europe was. Many of them---not all, but many--- got used to eunuchs, thanks to the East.

[Washington]

The EU is not a nation, is it? :-)

Have a good day Michael.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

I am not saying we should 'agree' on everything. Instead of that I make it quite clear when I disagree with US policies, just as you have every right to disagree with European policies. I just do not see why you would insult an entire continent at once, without being provoked.

Indeed the EU and US should be befriended nations. Actually we are that of course. Fact is, however, that friends can disagree with eachother, but do not tend to insult eachother like that.

[Patrick]

I second Washington's comments. I stood guard in Germany for a few years and lived "on the economy" and made many German friends. We are different. We will always be different. We expect different priorities from our governments and fellow citizens.

Again, I want friends, not followers. A friend lets you know when you are doing something stupid. He is still your friend after you went ahead and did it anyway. Just as he is still your friend when you turned out to be right, and it wasn't stupid. A friend doesn't have to always go with you when he disagrees. Are we friends? Do we need to be friends? We can always just be acquaintances that attend events that we both find "interesting".

[Washington]

One additonal point Michael:

I do have an appreciation for Europe. I helped defend it. I studied there. You are correct that Americans and Europeans have much in common. Sadly that is starting to disappear somewhat. It's the way history works.

As for bias-we all are biased. Some like to pretend they are not but this doesn't make it true. Each of us shows our bias in different ways but we show it. I wouldn't want a world without bias-it would be dull and it is a Utopian fanatasy to pretend that we can overcome all bias! What a crock of....stuff! :-)

[Patrick]

Sorry, I seem to have skipped part of my post above.

The cockiness that many detest allows you to move forward instead of falling to the enemy of decisions (paralysis through analysis). A 75% solution now is worth much more than a 100% solution 1 minute too late.

This cockiness does rub many the wrong way. It does lead to mistakes and attacking the wrong problem. It is a strength and a fault at the same time. But Americans hold true to doing something about a problem they perceive. Inaction is a greater sin, than honest mistakes in most cases. As many Texas love to say, you can't roll up your sleeves(and get to work) if you are busy wringing your hands(worrying about all the consequences).

Or for sci-fi fans Kirk would always beat Picard. He who hesitates, is lost.

[Washington]

Michael:

I can't dictate to my fellow Americans how to debate or what to feel. You may be unware but there is a good deal of hatred for Europe in many American circles. Thus, when some believe that America is being attcked they respond.

Again I do enjoy your comments-you can choose to believe it or not-I don't really care. However, as you reside on the continent of Europe and have little understanding of this country and it's border problems it comes off a bit strong when you declare what we should do - likewise I am certain that it bothers you when Americans talk about Europe and they express little understanding of the issues facing each of the nations there.

The debate has not ceased to be effective because someone disagrees with your opinion, even if they do so in a fairly strong manner. You don't know America, despite how much you read, watch, or listen. You don't have a grasp of the issues as the avergae American views them for the news, and blogs, do not represent America in any tangible way.

I hope you have a great day and when you decide to visit this great nation I should very much like to show you around New Haven, New York, or Princeton. I think you would love it.

Cheers

[Patrick]

Gringoman,

When you wrote, "Okay, Michael, let's put it this way: Everyone who was needy enough and bold enough came to America. Instead of sinking into a pond of despair, they sailed across an ocean of danger and adventure." did you mean:

The strength of immigration is that those in a society that are not risk adverse, and have ideas for betterment that are not accepted or easily implemented in their current society move elswhere and try for rewards not possible at home. This leads to countries with open immigration and non-hierarchial social structures to take advantage of a "brain drain" effect.

If so, this supports Michael's contention that Americans are generally a cocky bunch. I see no conflict in this, but agreement. You must be cocky to cast aside what is known in the hopes of achieving something better for yourself and family. When you succeed, you gain confidence in your opinion and start ignoring what others tell you. Success reinforces your world view. I remember a history channel special on WWII where a British General said the best thing about the Americans is that when you told them something couldn't be done, the Americans would quickly ignore them and find a solution in a day or two (example was crossing the Rhine I think).

In politics, all alliances are shifting. If we look at this in a business model, what went before is history and a sunk cost. Is international politics capitalistic? Should it be?

All nations act within their own best interest. They always will. We should be friends. Friends do not agree on things all the times. If they do, you really only have a leader and a follower. I want friends, not followers. Let the debate continue (not the name calling).

I agree with CloseDanger.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

It is freaking sad that people purposely made this into a America vs. Europe fight. It was a good debate until now. As for "I usually enjoy your comments" - That's great, but how about making clear to your fellow Americans that they need not to insult an entire continent? How about, instead of calling me out, calling the ones out who provoked it?

[CloseDanger]

The ONLY way to ensure that immigration can work correctly is to streamline our process of verification and make immigrants apply at the consulates in Their Country - Physically. Persecute those who hire them, and hire organizations that check identity. It is big brother - 1984. But when you live in animal farm, I do not care what they say.
Lock it all down and create a system where all people can take part in economic growth but Do NOT lose your soverign rights in doing so. It can be done. Very easily can it be done.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Your bias is showing.

The only reason for my unnuanced words was due to the words of Americans who were very much willing to insult an entire continent at once. Where here, did you ever read me doing that about America huh? Never. Never before did I do such a thing.

You know what: I am sure that there are Americans who got pissed because of my words, but understand it because I was provoked.

You, however, seem to be unable to do such a thing.

True, Europe would not be what it is right now without America. How far does that 'thank you' go? Huh? How many centuries should we just 'support' the US in everything the US does, just out of 'gratefulness'?
Despite that, something you should know; America shouldn't be what it is without Europe. Heck, your Constitution is based on ideas from Europe. Most of you wouldn't even be there without 'Europe' (ancestors huh?!). Remember who helped 'you' during your war against the British oppressors? Yeah the French. Shouldn't you 'still' be grateful to them?

The truth is, probably too hard to accept for you: both the US and Europe wouldn't exist for what we know it, without eachother. Strange HUH?

[Washington]

Michael:

You call people idiots for presenting their opinions and then launch into an assualt on America.

"Don't nuke a country already defeated", "cocky", etc...

I usually enjoy your comments even if we disagree but you just attacked the nation that I helped to defend. You may think you took the high road but you didn't, even with the "hehe" at the end.

We may be a cocky bunch but if we are we deserve to be. You may well think that you have a right to be cocky and I say more power to you. Despite what you might believe, and as historians have confirmed over and over, Europe would no exist as you know it, good and in some cases bad, without us "terrible Americans." We are far from perfect but give me an American any day over a Frenchman or a Belgian. That may offend your sensibilities but you can just go on defending DB and his right to speak. Frankly, your youth is showing.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

hehe I meant "I am sorry if I OFfended"

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Wow you are a cocky bunch. "Needy enough" indeed; it were mostly persecuted people, criminals and the poor who came to America.
Darrell: I am quite sure you could learn more from Europeans. For instance: respecting other parts of the world. Or another example; where did enlightment start? HUH? Freaking idiot. It started here in Europe. The founding fathers' ideas were clearly based on the ideas of Europe's greatest thinkers / minds.

Maybe you could learn other things; such as not nuking a country that you already defeated.
Other things: Not torturing prisoners.

You know what; you are the exact reason why 90% of the world hates America. Cockyness, shameless cockyness. The belief that America is the best and every other part of the world is 'envious' of America.
Oh freaking please.

Learn a lesson idiot, before you loose the little support you have in the world.

(I am sorry if I defended normal people here by these words, they were not directed at you, but at those idiots like gringo and darrell)

[Darrell]

That's right, Michael. I meant you. We can learn lessons from Europe- like what not to do. We do appreciate that, I assure you.

[gringoman]

Okay, Michael, let's put it this way: Everyone who was needy enough and bold enough came to America. Instead of sinking into a pond of despair, they sailed across an ocean of danger and adventure.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

"Everyone with sense came to America. Pity that the current Europeans can't accept that"

Darrel, dude, seriously. Get over it.

[Kenny Pierce]

As an example of my "class 2," tribalist Mexicans, I give you the self-proclaimed only true owners of the American continents...

The signs are all very entertaining but I think my favorite part is this comment:

One of the more negative parts of the march was when American flags were passed out to make sure the marchers were looked on as part of "America".

[Washington]

Laurel:

Prior to offering to answer your questions I ask again; what units were you in where that information was widely circulated? Further, as to medals of valor you are still incorrect. I suggest you go fact check prior to making claims.

As for gathering facts rather quickly that is a simple task. Here's why:

It takes more time to hunt down the truth than it does a myth. Owing to the fact that historians keep vast records and, more especially, since the military and veterans groups are quick to respond to any inquiry about medals and citations especially if someone is claiming one that is not due them, the process is very streamlined and efficient. As I myself am a historian it has become a quick process.

Perhaps you are referring to the number of awards received as a percentage of the ethnic groups that have served rather than the total number.

[Darrell]

Everyone with sense came to America. Pity that the current Europeans can't accept that.

This country current makes room for at least 1 million legal immigrants a year. There were waiting lists, and many other requirements for people from my grandparent's generation who made the trip in the early part of the 20th century. A major barrier they had to overcome was affording the cost of passage-a goal that seemed to move with each fare increase-and putting together a "nest egg" to tide them over while they became established here. There were no guarantees. They were just as free to fail as they were to succeed.

We have laws--time to enforce them. A good first step would be to establish a national identification system--one based on DNA and the best technology available. Right now employers are put into the position of judging whether someone has the proper ID or not. And if the person listed on the paperwork is really the person standing in front of them. Law enforcement give them practically no help. That has to change before we "crack down" on those "big, bad, businesses" hiring illegals.

As for people coming here legally--Welcome! We will not confuse you with the 2 million that come here illegally every year.

[Laurel]

Washington,

Army - admit didnt go fact checking too extensivly but should have said more probably medals of valor. What historians are you talking to? Where you able to get demographics that quick? Anyway no harm - I'll accept your point.

[gringoman]

Michael,

As a member of the younger continent, I am always ready to learn from the elder. For some reason, though, I continue to find the ancient Greeks and Romans a little more instructive than today's Euro-community. They came to understand, for example, the meaning of decadence, degeneration and dissolution in ways today's European seems to feel insulated from. Or maybe the fact that some political figures are now in hiding, or under special security even in your own country, is just some "right-wing fabrication"? You equated the millions of illegals swarming over our borders with the legals who sailed to Ellis Island. The Ellis Island immigrants, unlike the uncounted millions stealing across the Mexican border,and who now supply 30% of the criminals in federal prisons here, were not only counted, they were examined, documented and authorized and, if showing any sign of TB or other contagious disease, would be turned back to where they came from. They were not bankrupting schools and hospitals for welfare services. I don't see the comparison with untold millions of Mexicans in the new semi-socialistic welfare system which the legal immigrants did not have. But I'm willing for you to instruct me on what I'm unable to see.

[Paul]

The issue of whether illegal immigrants benefit the economy I believe has not been fully examined.

We in Los Angeles County, since Simpson Mazzoli in the late 80's, have been inundated with millions, that's right - millions of illegal aliens. Officially there are slightly over 10 million people residing in LA County, but we cannot tell for sure because there are several million illegals who cannot be counted accurately.

Until 1989, LA County was a job producing powerhouse for over a hundred years. Since 1989 from the latest figures I've seen, LA County has not produced one net new job, while substituting countless skilled jobs for several hundred thousand menial ones. Large tracts of the County which as late as the late 1970's were middle class, now look like Tijuana.

Many illegals coming from Mexico leave school at the sixth grade, and few are well educated. Recent surveys of the San Fernando Valley ( the Valley ) workforce show that over 30 percent are now functionally illerate, and LA until the late 1970's had one of the most educated workforces among major American cities. While many illegals have a great work ethic, most, particularly the men have little inclination to educate themselves. The Latino culture does not value education.

Latinos of past generations have largely assimilated in LA. Most illegals of today are not assimulating at all. There are just too many of them, and they live often in large hispanic ghettos where mostly Spanish is spoken. Many do not feel the need to assimulate. The present Establishment -cater to the illegals- mindset reinforces the belief among the illegals that they don't need to learn English and better themselves. That is why you see so many Mexican flags at these rallys. Like many parents of a spoiled child, the Government is afraid to say no to these people. And like a spoiled child, the illegals I predict will become bolder and bolder in their demands and defiance unless stern measures are taken that grabs their attention. Futhermore, the last polls I saw of Mexican Presidential Election show that the far left Hugo Chavez admiring Mayor of Mexico City is far out front in the campaign for this year's Presidential election. The current Mexican Government and the Spanish language media have already been encouraging both illegal immigration and the current rallies. If this Hugo clone gets elected there could be some real ugly problems.

Immediately, we need to secure the Border , preferably with a fence or a wall with real security forces backing that up.

But after the Border is secured, we need to realistically deal with the illegals in our midst. We must face the fact that these are not going home. Mexico is a hellhole now, and it's going to get much worse. It is a pipe dream to think we could send millions of these people home, even to register them for a guest worker program. The issue of how to educate and assimulate desperately needs to be discussed and acted upon or we are going to be very sorry.

The onus of registering, tracking, and complying with any new program needs to be on the illegals; after all they did break the law. And there needs to be stiff penalties if they fail to comply.

[patrick]

Laurel,

I have to agree with Washington. I have been in the Army since 1985 (still am) and never heard that "fact" before which is why I did some checking. I have met a one real CMH winner and one imposter. I was just wondering if there was a more correct breakdown of ethnic backgrounds that was not available elsewhere. It would be interesting to have a true breakdown of that information, but since most were awarded around the time of the Civil War (including the only one to a woman, which was stripped by a later congress, and then reawarded...) and even the citations themselves are quite "succinct".

One of the things I love about Alexandra's site is that most people who contribute check their facts, because this crowd will always call you on it. I have found several things I was mistaken on when I was trying to find a reference before citing a "fact".

[Washington]

One other note - even up until 1990-prior to the skirmishes you mention-that is still incorrect. So the intervening years -1990-present have no effect.

You mention how often it was brought up in military circles-what units were you a part of where this was discussed? I am around the military daily and during my service never heard this "opinion."

[Washington]

Laurel:

Your information appears to be wrong. I checked with the military, fellow historians, and several bodies tasked with maintaining records of military awards/decorations. There is nothing to subtsantiate what you claim as fact.

It is always helpful if claims of any kind are backed up by some references. In this case, much like DB, it appears that you have misspoken (misstyped).

This is urbam myth as fact - a common tactic of the left. (Not that you, Laurel, are pushing it as such.)

[Laurel]

Patrick,

Like I said stats could have changed, especially since the Iraq war and many other skirmishes in between, Mogadishu etc...This info is from about 11 years ago. They, being mexican, latino, etc., also had the most over all medals (silver star, bronze star etc...) Was taught this through the Army system - as far as sites to check, well I couldn't quite say. I can't tell you how many times this is brought up in military circles. A military DOD site might be more reliable.

[Kenny Pierce]

Alexandra, since you ask:

Haven't put loads of thought into this one. Generally speaking, pretty much off the top of my head without taking time either to be thoughtful or tactful:

1. If we're gonna have laws, then we ought to enforce them. The President's duty is to enforce the laws -- not just such laws as he thinks he can enforce without offending a core demographic group his advisors consider critical to his future political career.

2. Arguments based on what immigrant competition will do to the wages of unskilled native labor all start with the fundamental assumptions that (a) the immigrants are willing to work for less money because their economic condition in their own country is so disastrous that even relatively low wages here represent a major improvement in their standard of living, and (b) we ought to care about the Americans because they're Americans and thus if the only way to keep some Americans' standard of living up is to use armed force (at the borders) to keep far more impoverished Mexicans imprisoned in their appalling poverty...well, hell, if that's what it takes, screw the little greasers. That latter premise is the implicit conclusion of every person who says, "But immigrants lower wages for unskilled Americans." Yeah, well, unskilled immigrants greatly increase their own wages by immigrating, and they don't lose any value in my eyes from having had the poor taste to be born in the Sierra Madre rather than in the Kiamichis. If you mention the first effect (lowering of wages for Americans) without mentioning the second (dramatic improvement in living qualities for the Mexicans and their families) then I have no respect for your moral vision, especially since the impoverished American grows up with far greater priviliges and opportunities than does the impoverished Mexican. Thus I reject that second, tribalist premise entirely and see no reason why we should care less about honest Mexican laborers than we do about white redneck American laborers -- even though I myself grew up in white redneck poverty rather than in the brown-skinned Chihuahuan variety.

3. Basically I think there are four types of Mexicans:

a. The good ones who understand what makes America successful and want to be a part of it.

b. The ones who have the tribalist approach to "justice" (VERY loosely so called) and still think California and the other border states are rightfully "ours." (La Raza, for example.)

c. The criminals who exploit the border anarchy.

d. The corrupt Mexican government that uses the United States as the safety valve to keep their own extortionism and corruption from causing massive revolt.

So my take on immigration is pretty much, the more of #1 the merrier, and screw the rest of the bastards. (Though they ought to have to follow the same rules the rest of us do -- and remember that I have an adopted daughter who is currently going through five years of residency solely because bureaucratic delays in Kazakhstan caused her eighteenth birthday to pass a few days before we could get her into the country; it's obscene to think that I might have been better off to fly her to Mexico and smuggle her across the border.)

4. As I explain at length (though hastily) here -- using Mexican/American immigration as an example, by pure coincidence -- I absolutely believe that rights to enjoy the benefits of a society cannot be claimed by those who reject that society's fundamental principles, from which those very benefits flow. If the U.S. had not "stolen" half of Mexico, then the half of Mexico we "stole" would be the same kind of basket case the rest of Mexico is. The best thing that ever happened for Mexicans in California, was when the United States "stole" it. As the joke has it, Mexicans hate Texans because not only did we steal half their country -- but we stole the half with all the paved roads.

But as I say, I have devoted very little thought to the issue and would have to describe my position as immature (probably in more than one sense). For background on the political philosophy underlying it (if you care), you can look here.

[Patrick]

Laurel,

" I do beleive, unless stats have changed, they hold the most medals of honor in the US military system."

I have never seen that statistic before. Could you point me in the right direction? I referenced the actual MOH site (listed below which has the actual citations-interesting read) and have not come across a Hispanic statistic. Especially since close to 2000 of the 3459 awards came from just the Civil War and Indian Campaigns (of which several have been rescinded-Wounded Knee). I spun through seveal lists and your assertion does not seem to be correct.
There are only 40 listed on the NETA (Hispanics in Americas Defense) site.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

[Patrick]

Fausta,

you wrote... favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America's education system is not sufficiently supplying.

Trust me when I say we are doing pretty well on the immigration of math and science professionals. That is not a problem where I am at. I am pursuing my PhD in Engineering at at small (+40,000 students) conservative engineering university here in the Great State of Texas and in most of my classes I am a 5%er. All of my fellow classmates and most of my teachers are from other countries. The coursework is tough enough without adding the language barrier (yes, that was an egregious snivel). The ratio is higher (~10-15%) in the classes that are for both Master's and PhD students.

So from a current engineering graduate student's perspective, we are not having any problems granting visas to foreign students and professors in those hard engineering and mathematics disciplines. I do have two Iranian friends who had to go to Dubai to get their visas since we do not have an embassy in Iran; however, they were the only ones who have had difficulties getting a visa.

I know the discussion should be about immigration and visas, not student visas. For many of these students, they come, study, some return home, but many stay and become American citizens. All of the younger professors (not white-haired)here are naturalized US citizens. I have not had a single course in my graduate program (engineering, statistics, and math) that was taught by a US citizen (by birth and english was their first language) who was under 58 yrs old. Yes I realize this is simply one data point, and conclusions can not be drawn from it, however it is a valid observation.

From what I understand, fewer international students are staying in America than they did in the past. More and more return to teach what they learned here in their own universities. Another thread altogether.

[North by Northwest]

Laurel,

they [Hispanic] hold the most medals of honor in the US military system

Nice piece of information there. Thanks.

As to terrorist links: remember the Adnan G. El Shukrijumah:

A top al Qaeda lieutenant has met with leaders of a violent Salvadoran criminal gang with roots in Mexico and the United States ­ including a stronghold in the Washington area ­ in an effort by the terrorist network to seek help infiltrating the U.S.-Mexico border, law enforcement authorities said. [...]

The Salvadoran gang, known to law enforcement authorities as MS-13 because many members identify themselves with tattoos of the number 13, is thought to have established a major smuggling center in Matamoros, Mexico, just south of Brownsville, Texas, from where it has arranged to bring illegal aliens from countries other than Mexico into the United States. Authorities said al Qaeda terrorists hope to take advantage of a lack of detention space within the Department of Homeland Security that has forced immigration officials to release non-Mexican illegal aliens back into the United States, rather than return them to their home countries. Less than 15 percent of those released appear for immigration hearings

Micheal, read Michelle Malkin's comprehensive post--this isn't a hyped up problem, this is a totally dormant issue, waiting to 'explode', pun intended...

[igout]

Re: American Immigration in the old days. I read this tidbit somewhere. That on the steamers carrying immigrants to the new world, such as the Titanic, the reason why steerage was kept apart under lock and key en route wasn't on account of British class snobbishness; it was at the request of US Immigration, who wanted the new comers kept separate. Maybe it meant less hassle for the inspectors at disembarkation. Nowadays, I guess, the aim is no hassle at all; so simply let them all wander in and pretend you don't notice.

[Washington]

Michael:

With all due respect you are in no position to provide an effective arguement with respect to the border situation. Perhaps if you visited the USA and spent some time with the people responsible for border security you might well understand it better. I did not have an appreciation for European issues until I undertook the study of them in Europe.

As for knocking Europe I resist that temptation as far as possible. However, when offering opinions on the US expect opinions to be offered on Europe.

As to immigration my family came over from Europe. They went through the proper channels. They expected nothing-instead understanding that here was a chance to create a new life.

Anyone wishing to make a better life is welcomed-I open my arms to them. But do it right. That is not too much to ask of anyone.

[Laurel]

I'm a fourth generation immigrant. It wasn't that long ago we were boat people too without a pot to piss in as they say:)

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Good points laurel. I have to criticize you a little though: there is no such thing as the 'hispanic race'. :D

That's great, but I wonder: how strict were the immigration rules at that time compared to the rules from today?

Just because I am curious: How many generations do you (all) live in the US?

Oh and Gringo - before dissing Europe again; think about what we contributed to the world first next time.

[Laurel]

Point well taken Michael. First and foremost I have no problem with the Hispanic at all. Honorable race. Matter-o-fact I do beleive, unless stats have changed, they hold the most medals of honor in the US military system. Race is not really the point, but integrity is. I have to admit the raising of the Mexican flag on US soil is a thorn in my side - not good.

As for my ancestors they came "legally" through Ellis Island. None spoke English - taught it to themselves as a matter of pride. Hard working Italians and Irish folk. Nothing given to them. But, they were Americans first, Irish and Italian second. All of my forefathers and some mothers defended this country during times of war.

None would ever think of flying the US flag upside down to make a point.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

In the end it is your country. Rule it as you please.

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Oh and uh Gringo, now we're playing the dirty game:

We are a much older continent with much more history / experience Gringo. As weird as this may sound to you, Americans could learn something from us.

Eurabia? Really? hmm... What percentage do you think of the European population, or for instance The Netherlands, is Muslim?

and this: ""No need to spend time trying to educate Europeans about national security, except maybe for Comedy Hour"

Maybe you could learn something about not sacrificing your rights to feel 'safe'?

Laurel
My point is this, in essence:
- I believe it would be a great enrichment to the US if Hispanics were very easily accepted.
- Of course you need to make sure no extremist wacko is getting in, so that means tough border controll, bút it should not take the average Mexican I don't know how many years to get into the US, at least, not in my opinion.
- I am getting sick and tired of the "post 9/11 world" argument. That's called a strategy of fear. Not working for me. That is why I talked about that 9/11 comparison.

I ask once again to all of you: How did your forfathers get into the country?

[Michael (van der) Galien]

Well, you could learn something. For instance not dissing an entire continent at one freaking time.

[gringoman]

No need to spend time trying to educate Europeans about national security, except maybe for Comedy Hour. It's not just that they seem so ignorant about the stringent requirements for immigrants at Ellis Island before Dems and capitalists tore down U.S. borders. They dare to compare those legal immigrants with today's illegal tsunami.It's just too ridiculous. They will lecture Americans about immigration, 9.11, the joys of multy-culty sophistication etc, even while their own continent is turning into Eurabia where journalists are hiding from death threats. Wow! Remember the good old days, when Americans were the naifs, and Europeans were the savvy, worldly ones, instead of vice versa?

Now at gringoman: "Reconquista: It's War."

[Jeff Durkin]

Well, I've gone on about this for some time at my site [begin self-serving plug - kotp.blogspot.com - end self-serving plug], so I'll just hit a few highlights.

1. We have to get control of the borders and end the inflow of foreign nationals who are in this country illegally (FNWAITI) before we can address how to handle the large numbers already here. Whatever policy you favor regarding FNWAITI - guest worker programs, amnesty programs, load them onto boats and dump them in the Gulf of Mexico programs - none are going to work without a reduction in the number of people able to cross the border without being noticed or tracked. Control of the border will allow us some breathing space to devise reasonable policies and to get a good idea of the magnitude of the FNWAITI population. The estimate always comes in at around 12 million, but there is substantial flow back and forth between the US and Mexico. This is an untenable situation, both from the standpoint of developing a reasonable policy to address the situation and from a n law and order standpoint, in which this mass migration of people is creating a semi-lawless zone on both sides of the border.
2. Once we have control of the border, some form of graduated amnesty program will have to be devised. While it may be more viscerally or philosophically satisfying to say deport them or that they shouldn't benefit from breaking the law, the fact is, a mass deportation effort would cause serious economic harm. While the overall benefit - assuming there is one - of the illegal workforce is not settled issue, certainly the illegal workforce benefits some industries and regions. Further, with a population in excess of 10 million, it would only take a small percentage of FNWAITI to violently resist deportation efforts to turn some of our major cities into war zones. We've seen what ethno-cultural wars can do; does anyone really want to see something like Bosnia in the 1990s replicated in Southern California or Texas?
3. The program needs to allow for those who want to be here for work only to have some mechanism to labor legally in the US for a fixed amount of time, to be tracked while they do so and then confirmed to have left the country when that period is over. It also needs to allow those who wish to become citizens some mechanism for doing so. We also need to clear up the issue of children born to FNWAITI in this country. I would prefer for them not to be considered US citizens by virtue of birth, because their parents are foreign nationals, but I would entertain other arguments. Finally, for those would decide not to participate in this amnesty program or who subsequently break the law and enter the country, the penalties need to be harsh. As in "years in a labor camp" harsh. Our catch-and-release policies are a dismal failure. And, without harsh penalties, there won't be much incentive for those already in-country to comply with an amnesty/guest worker/naturalization law. I would also prefer (and in keeping with some of the proposals in Congress) that those who applied for either a guest worker program or citizenship be subjected to some nominal penalty, so the flouting of the law is not allowed to stand.
4. Once this is done - once the southern border is sealed and the FNWAITI population in the US has had its final disposition determined, we will need to come up with some way for low-skilled guest workers to come into the States in a way in which they can be tracked (so, we need probably need a national ID, along with regional guest worker agencies for tracking), but is simple and efficient to allow them to move in and out of the country in an relatively painless fashion. This program will have to be throttled to reflect economic need, something we will not know until we stop the cross-border movement and have a better idea of exactly how much of the economy relies on this form of labor.
5. We also need to decide how to ensure that the reduction in remittances that would almost certainly result - at least inthe short-term - does not lead to economic collapse in Mexico or Central America. In Mexico, for example, remittances are, I believe, the second largest source of foreign income (after oil exports). We cannot just seal the borders and say "you're on your own." Well, we could, but that wouldn't make much sense.
6. As we are doing this, we also need to be wary of the Mexican Nationalist Revisionist movement (i.e., the people who want the Southwest US "back"). It is not impossible that, if our border control and "amnesty" programs are working that some may decide to turn to terrorism, if they think that the logic of demographics is turning against them. I really don't know how serious a threat this is or could be, but it should be closely monitored, lest we find ourselves fighting an internal, ethno-cultural COINS war.

So, just a few thoughts. Basically, border security, followed by policies that recognize the reality of the situation and that provide for probable economic dislocation in the major countries of origin.

[Laurel]

Michael,

Obviously, it wasn't Mexican that brought the towers down. I'm not going to get into the nuttiness of conservative or liberal. It's about protection of the borders where "Other than Mexicans" are coming in unfettered. That has everything to do with a post 9-11 world.

"One of the mistakes a lot of rightist make is that they connect almost everything to 9/11. Firstly that is complete nonsense; secondly I consider it a disgrace to what really happened on 9/11. 9/11 was about, in case you all forgot, Muslim extremists whose objective was to destroy the American way of living, not some about Hispanics trying to improve their lives."

You're kidding right? No offense, but you are naive. Very naive. As a member of the military here in CA - it's hard for me to read that without laughing. So what's your point? It's obvious you can control the border with a few checks to see if someone is legal.

"The difference should be made time and time again. If you are so concerned about extremists getting in nonetheless, that goal could be achieved by better boarder-control - which means better check-ups about who enters your county, while making it easier if someone passes that check-up. In other words: no ties to extremism? B.e.a.utiful - come on in!"

Great to see you have it wrapped up.

[Fausta]

I posted about this the other day, and my point is that we need this debate to be about creating more Americans and not about empowering illegal immigrants.
I also agree for the most part with George Will in that Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America's education system is not sufficiently supplying.

And conservatives should favor reducing illegality by putting illegal immigrants on a path out of society's crevices and into citizenship by paying fines and back taxes and learning English.

Another blogger, however, focuses on Mexican problems in his post.

Either way, it was about time this issue came to the fore.

[Washington]

President Bush has failed to address core security issues here on the homefront. His approach to immigration is nothing short of pandering. Whilst it is inconceivable that we might attempt to deport millions of people, the President and the Congress are not serious about controlling the borders. In a war-especially one that we are told is global and inisidious, it is illogical to allow unfettered access into the country.

I am also tired of hearing people state that illegal immigrants will work jobs Americans won't - the difference is that Americans want a better wage to work those jobs-but it is intellectually dishonest to state that Americans won't work those jobs.

Michelle Malkin is on the forefront of this issue and she rightly concludes that the President is failing in his approach to immigration.