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Saturday, April 08, 2006

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Comments

PapaBear

Consider that in the Islamic world, the way to get status is to be a warrior or a Qu'ranic authority

The Islamic world's "Golden Age" coincided with their period of expansion-by-conquest into established civilizations, into the Byzantine Empire, Persia, India, etc. With that expansion came a steady inflow of loot and slaves who knew how to run a civilization. When that inflow terminated, so did the "Golden Age".

epaminondas

When Tycho Brahe was farting around with his telescopes he was communicating with a fellow researcher in Istanbul. They were about the same place, theoretically. The year that Brahe published, the ulema in Istanbul decided that such research was "incorrect", and the observatory was razed to the ground.

Two generations after he died, the muslims were obliterated at Vienna.

Religion can have no place in man's need to know.

gringoman

Good analysis. The "Medieval Question", of course, is central. Why did the West come out of the Middle Ages, while Islam sank back in (assuming it's "glory period," in its early centuries, when it conquered almost half the known world and even preserved much of Greco-Roman learning, as seen in the great Andalusian-Arab philosopher and physician Averroes, was not itself deeply rooted in the dark ages)? And why, today, despite the "moderates" and the Johhny-Walker drinkers who Republicans (Dems too) schmooze and cut business deals with in Washington, does this religion seem so tied down to the past? Why does little Israel seem to produce more inventors and Nobel-caliber types in the sciences or mathematics etc than the entire muslim world? Why does the "luck of the draw" with oil funds (of which jihadis have always known how to get "their cut" from the "moderates,")seem, to some, the reason why Islam still even survives as a big world religion? The writer below looks into these matters. I don't necessarily agree with him in toto. He claims that, ironically, the muslims stayed mired because they were more "spiritual" than the Europeans, especially northern Europeans. Also, the Arabs absorbed Greek thought before Europeans did, yet Europeans,ironically, unlike the muslims, used this knowledge for a "renaissance." I think this guy is begging some questions here. The Romans, after all, had assimilated Greek thought and culture centuries before there was an Islam, and it followed them all over the Roman Empire, just like their roads and aqueducts and temples, from Spain to France, North Africa, Egypt and the Middle East. (The Romans, of course, never let Greek metaphysics get in the way of the natural Roman inclination to act, to make, to build, to administer, to govern.) That said, the writer here explores an area that needs exploring, and probably won't be on CNN or the Evening News with Katie Couric.


Muslims discovered Greek thought hundreds of years before the Western Christians, yet it was the latter who ultimately assimilated it. Why did the reverse not happen? By tracing the major currents of medieval Islamic and Christian thought, this article, in part, proposes that the outcome had little to do with the virtues or vices of the tenets of either Islam or Christianity (they were both obstacles), but with older and deeper dispositions of mass belief. The Roman Christians (unlike the Byzantine Christians) lacked a significant spiritual-mystical dimension in the faith of their masses, unlike in the Islamic heartland, where such presence was strong. In particular, the latter led to Sufism, the dominant face of Islam until the 19th century (when orthodoxy began rising, partly in reaction to colonialism and modernism). Widespread mysticism thus indirectly denied critical mass to the early Islamic rationalism.

In the medieval West, on the other hand, there was hardly a mystical tradition; it had precious little of the non-denominational spirituality that seeks worldly detachment. As Protestant reinterpretation and Greek rationalism challenged their dogma-centric metaphysics, the temporal naturally gained wider emphasis, with its external engagement and human agency. It fostered popular attitudes and values similar to those of Classical Greece, which too had no spirituality. Notably, this took root in regions with relatively recent 'barbarian' pasts and poorer records of spiritual life – northwestern Europe. At the expense of Catholicism, these attitudes snowballed into the abstraction of individualism, ultimately leading to the scientific method and political institutions built via negotiation. Much of what followed sprang from an interplay of its internal logic and contingency.

In the Epilogue, I propose a different classification, from the clichéd east-west, of mankind's significant and seminal metaphysical responses down the ages. It would be no fun writing this just for the sake of polemics – I am ever mindful of the shortness of human life, and the obscurity of the theme – this article also discusses some of the key events and the lives & times of many remarkable personalities of early Islam: al-Beruni, Omar Khayyam, Firdausi, al-Farabi, Ibn al-Arabi, and Avicenna, besides others.

http://www.shunya.net/Text/Islam/Abstract.htm

Patrick

Since you bring up Rome, let us not forget the 3rd Punic War and as Cato the Elder always said: Carthago delenda est! (Carthage must be destroyed!)

For years he worked this demand into every oratory. It became a rallying cry for Rome. Eventually, the Romans acquiesced to this demand. It took three years to breach the walls, and another week of vicious street to street fighting to make it to the citadel, but in the end, Rome did what it said it would do. It tore down the walls of Carthage. It killed the men and sold the women and children into slavery. It ordered that no city would ever stand there again. I always heard they salted the fields, but newer investigations discount this.

So what is my point? Years of a people announcing their intentions. Those same people demonstrated their proclivity to do what they say. When the time was right and they had the excuse, they struck and fulfilled their promise. Ring a bell?

Did all of Rome desire to see the absolute destruction of Carthage? Did the Carthagenians believe the Romans would actually do it? The Carthagenians had a valid treaty, paid horrendous reparations, disbanded their war machine. Surely the Romans knew that Carthage was not a threat to them?

I know some are dismayed with this illustration. Different Romans had different reasons for the destruction of Carthage (philosopical, economical-killing the Romans in the olive trade, personal-memories of Hannibal,...). Different members of Islam have different reasons for acting the way they do. Just because your friend will not take part in the rape and sacking of the city, does not mean they will do more than voice a few objections and say it does not concern them. How many vehemently protest that what is happening is not Islam. Very Few. Most protest and say it is a poor interpretation, but do not deny the validity of militant Islam. I applaud those few who do risk their lives by issuing minor fahtwahs. But there is not struggle for the heart of islam. No recognized religious scholars who are trying to bring islam out of its slide into the dark ages.

Until there is a solid break, and a giving unto Ceasar...Oh wait, the Koran says you should not give unto Ceasar since there is only one true law Muslims should abide by. Tolerance, Peace, Submission...they all mean the same, right???

gringoman

What if the U.S. really were run by Zionists and gentiles who did their bidding---according to the Islamo-Fascismo playbook? All right, there might still be a Barbara Streisand Hollywood, changing the Arab terrorists in Clancy best-seller into Idaho neo-Nazis (got to think of the muslim and Eurabian box-office.) There might still be deracinated NBC yuppies searching for "anti-muslim feelings" at NASCAR.And maybe there would not be a warning that Abdullah's next big strike on USA means bye-bye Mecca-and-mullahs in a blinding flash (was it wise to make a 'Great Satan' really angry?) But if Zionists were calling the shots, would even the State Department be donating a single dinar to the poor needy spawn and electorate of murderous jihadis? After all, Zionists are not dumbkopfs about history. They would understand that jihadi barbarism began after Rome softened, weakened and declined, to the point where it could even see its own cowardice and inadequacy as self-congratulatory "compassion" and "diplomacy."

Raimondo

Very scary indeed. Our way of life, our cultural values and our children's future cannot be taken for granted.

In my own experience I saw what happened to the Catholic Cathedral in Mogadiscio Somalia, and to other churches and houses of worship in Somalia that were not Muslim. It's absolutely barbaric!

epaminondas

No one should harbor any doubt that for the 'arab' cause to succeed it's main ally must be racism.
It's amazing really. It's one of the reasons that I have felt for years that there is simply NOTHING to discuss. Having been one who faced the KKK nose to nose, I personally can't see a SINGLE difference. Yet I hear from my gulf friends, that, well, the 'jews are different, you are being made a dupe'. And the reason for this IS that which the muslim morons of Tamiyyoid lineage hold most dear, the founding document, and the Hadiths.
It is precisley those things taken as literal articles of faith which must be moved many miles before there is both a climate for DISCUSSION in the middle east, and a peace with the Islam of the salafi zarquoids (which thanks to the many God Bless Hitler, etc. signs IS Islam today)
When for 1600 years you teach your children the Hadith of the "Stone and the Tree", and 9:29, what can you expect? That they will lie down with the lambs?
When you teach for that long that the 'rightly guided Caliph Umar I says', "Do not appoint the jews and christians to public office because in their relgiion they are the people of bribes", or 3:118, call me stupid, but I imagine only one cultural result.

This is not only why there is nothing to discuss between the jewsish people in Israel and the Tamiyya-Qutb- Muslim-Brotherhood philosphical and religious bigots, but also why WE have little room for what they claim is peace as well.

Their victory, is the victory of Nathan Bedford Forrest's grand kleagles.

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