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Tuesday, August 01, 2006

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Comments

liquid

Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE has charged that Hizballah staged the entire incident

Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative.”
Alexandra

From Michael Totten in Lebanon, who is blogging over @ Glenn Reynolds' place at the moment:

HEZBOLLAH THREATENS JOURNALISTS: Christopher Allbritton, reporting from Lebanon, says "To the south, along the curve of the coast, Hizbullah is launching Katyushas, but I’m loathe to say too much about them. The Party of God has a copy of every journalist’s passport, and they’ve already hassled a number of us and threatened one."
They threatened me too, and that was during peace time.

Kenny Pierce

Michael,

When a man has said all there is to say and said it perfectly, what could any further comment be but superfluity?

;-)

Actually, I don't think you're giving Israel enough credit. They are actually releasing a really quite impressive amount of information countering Hezbollah's propaganda. The MSM just likes the Hezbollah-friendly "Lebanese-butchering Israeli" meme much more than it likes the IDF-friendly "Hezbollah terrorist" meme, and so Israel is in effect tacking into the wind. You can give an MSM'er a lede, but you can't make him think. Which is to say, freedom of the press includes the freedom to ignore the press releases issued by the side you don't like.

I also doubt that Israel is at all surprised at the extent to which world media is eager to play along with Hezbollah and resistant to the IDF. I think they just figured what the hell, they hate us so much anyway, what's the downside? Just a price we have to pay in order to achieve the military results we've come to believe are necessary for our survival.

Michael van der Galien

Did I just kill the thread?

Michael van der Galien

Slowtrain I agree. Alexandra truly has one of the best blogs on the net. The commenters are generally very well informed, reasonable and always willing to debate the actual topic not the character of the person who wrote it (as happens on so many blogs).
ATB is one of those few blogs where people can come, disagree but still be greatly respected.

It's almost unbelievable how Hizbullah is winning the propaganda war. The Western media is, somehow, a willing victim of the lies and deceit of Hizbullah. Today an Israeli civilian was killed by Hizbullah, do we hear any outrage about that from CNN? I don't. It'll be a gigantic step forward for them to simply mention it.

Truth be told that Israel must also blame herself for that. Every war requires propaganda. Israel, quite simply, didn't anticipate Hizbullah's use of propaganda and our media's willingness to air / print it.
What Israel must do now is to strike back with full force herself: propaganda-wise I mean. More openess and she must not be afraid to confront the world with the horrific results of the crimes committed by Hizbullah. The images of destroyed Israeli homes must be aired, the public must see what Israel faces every single day.

It's rightful of us to point out that the Western MSM seems to be a willing victim of Hizbullah's propaganda, but we should not 'cry about it' too much, so to speak. We must simply confront our readers images and stories about what's really going on. If we do so, the MSM might just pick it up.

slowtrain

Liquid makes an excellent corroboration, another reason why this blog is a cut above the rest.

Contrary to angry and irrational rants that dominate the blosgosphere; "raw emotions" or emotionalism as Markos Moulitsas Zúniga (Kos) recently defined the blog to be, in his recent Nightline outing. On this blog, reason not recur tend carry the debate. People actually debate issues, literally dig up the truth and connect the dots rather than engage in incessant pandering and expulsion of hot air.

Huan

RL, you posted:

The Human humanitarian-disaster in Lebanon as of 8/2/06,

831 human-beings dead.
3,243 human-beings injured.
913,760 human-beings displaced.

Measured response ?


These figures fascinate me because only 831 humans are dead out of a population of nearly a million. A million are displaced because they were warned to leave. And a significant percentage of the 831 are combatants.
The figures fascinate me also in that after 3 weeks of war this is the casualty figure. Whereas after a few hours on 911 thousands were dead.

In a perfect world there would be no wars. All disagreements are resolved with polite discourse.
But the world is not perfect, so there will be wars.

Wars are shitty because people die. Had words been of sufficient power, they would have been used to prevent wars. I doubt words alone, regardless how emotionally laden, would really do that much now. The best way to end a war is when one side admits defeat. And the admission of defeat only comes about after one side recognizes they are against a disproportionate force without hope for victory. If anything, the Israeli response has been insufficiently disproportionate to quickly and decisively end this "humanitarian disaster."

Unfortunately the MSM allows one side a glimmer of hope even when they are facing defeat in the field.

jess1dering

Liquid,
That's a remarkable observation you linked to.
Slowtrain,
How very true, but how many folks do you think will be able to connect the dots?
----------------------
--------------------------
One man's comment on the "Lebanese public opinion poles" from another blog was that ,".. if you live in a neighborhood run by thugs , you talk nice about the thugs 'till the police show up in sufficient force to really protect you." It makes sense to me.

liquid

Slowtrain, I wonder how many people are paying attention to the August date that Ahmadenijad has tossed out there!

Farid Ghadry, the president of the Reform Party of Syria, has offered a provocative explanation for this delay. He asserts that the Supreme National Security Council of Iran chose the August 22 date “for a very precise reason. August 21, 2006 (Rajab 27, 1427) is known in the Islamic calendar as the Night of the Sira’a and Miira’aj, the night Prophet Mohammed (saas) ascended to heaven from the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on a Bourak (Half animal, half man), while a great light lit-up the night sky, and visited Heaven and Hell also Beit al-Saada and Beit al-Shaqaa (House of Happiness and House of Misery) and then descended back to Mecca.…”
Iran's Day of Terror?


slowtrain

Perhaps, the one “good” thing that has already come out of this particular episode in the conflict, assuming good can possibly be associated with the situation and assuming people can be true to themselves, is the knowledge or confirmation of what many of us have repeatedly voiced on this forum - the fact that Iran will not hesitate to arm its proxy armies with nuclear weapons or other WMD should such become available in its arsenal. Does anyone still think that Ahmadenijad and his mullahs were bluffing when he expressed his desire to wipe Israel off the map? The potential of Iran acquiring nuclear capability is a clear and present danger, not only to Israel but to the whole world.

Fausta

Re metastasizing, in French:
http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=9800
http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc.asp?doccode=994&cat=2
(translation at my blog, with apologies for the self-promotion)

Patrick

RL,

I believe it is actually just the latest in a long line of buzzwords. Once you name something, you rob it if its "newly discovered:how do we deal with it" fear. I assume you are referring to hybrid war from the Marine Corps. If you want to study the history of warfare, this is not really anything new. The elements of this type of conflict have been seen many times before, and will be seen many times again. We just keep changing the words we use to describe it. We are creating a new series of terms (not in any of the Joint Publications yet) that let us use a new shorthand.

BTW, slowtrain is more correct in his use of asymetric warfare. Hybrid War will be bandied about for many years before it actually hits an official publication and is taught in the school houses of our military. Don't get me started on the difficult in changing terminology in the Joint and Multinational world of military operations.

slowtrain

RL:

Whatever terminology is more appropriate works for me, but one thing is clear, it is a hellish disposition and a satanic doctrine. The sooner people (UN and the global community) wake up and realize that they are being cleverly manipulated and sentimentally duped by Hezbollah, the sooner pressure would be brought to bear on Iran to stop arming Hezbollah, inciting violence and creating instability in the Middle East; instability that is a real threat to world peace and global stability.

RL

slowtrain, according to our outstanding US DOD, hybrid warfare (ie. a "hybrid war") is even more precise terminology for what you have lucidly described. The evil, horrific, and satanic legacy of (ayatollah) "imam" khomeini, the earthly- father of the islamic revolution of Iran AND hezbollah, lives on; what an absolutely horrific disaster from hell for all of humanity.


slowtrain

Alexandra wrote:
“…that it has become a crying shame and an intolerable outrage for the MSM's continual refusal to unmask Hezbollah's methodical exploitation of civilian suffering; the despicable reality that every civilian casualty furthers their murderous course; that it is not in Hezbollah's interest to save lives, but instead to hype up each and every casualty to fuel hatred against Israel.”

As I said before, Hezbollah is engaged in asymmetrical warfare with Israel, and indeed the Western world, the indiscriminate sacrifice of innocent Lebanese men, women and children to drive global public opinion, particularly European, Arab and Muslim sentiments against Israel. Fundamentally it is no different from the strategy of deploying suicide bombers against Israel and the West, to intimidate and take hostage public opinion. The reality is that Hezbollah has no regard for human life; Israeli or Arab, man or woman, elderly or infant. The only thing that matters is the goal of inflicting damages to Israel, one way or another, even if it means sacrificing 300 Lebanese to kill 3 Israelis. They essentially inhabit the madman logical domain and are forcing the devil's alternative on everyone.

As I have also commented before:

“In this world there are unintended consequences riding the heels of misconceived actions, hence we see terrorist organizations like Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood sweep into power essentially by hijacking the sometimes naïve and misguided efforts of the West to transform the Middle East; Islamic fundamentalists poised to takeover power by hijacking our efforts in driving out a dictator in Iraq…. So far in naiveté the West has inadvertently managed to play into the hands of the Islamic fundamentalists or to do all the heavy lifting that ended up benefiting the fundamentalists and counterproductively working against West.”

My fear is that the future, in a society deprived of analogical reasoning, similar ominous outcome may the riding the wings of the irrational sentiments that have greeted this war in Europe, Arabia and the Islamic world.

RL

Dear Alexandra,

What are the wonderful Lebanese people supposed to do with the fact that Lebanon has a 40% shiite-Lebanese population ?

Did you want the Lebanese "military" to order the shiite Lebanese to move to the zionist state of Israel, and to perpetrate a hostile takeover of the Gaza strip and the West Bank ?

The Human humanitarian-disaster in Lebanon as of 8/2/06,

831 human-beings dead.
3,243 human-beings injured.
913,760 human-beings displaced.

Measured response ?

ICRC.org
(Neutral, Impartial, and Independent)


jess1dering

Truth Seeker,
Just wondering if you see any value in individual freedom . Seems to me that, at core, any relationship with God must be authentic and not coerced. You oppose all of the things Israel allows under law. That law doesn't compel anyone to engage in the activities in question. I wish we could say the same about radical islam. However , they make no secret of the fact that their mission is to "compel" others into a certain mode of living and even into a certain system of belief. For example, if I do not believe in abortion, in the USA I do not ever have to have one. If I so choose, I can exercise my rights as a citizen to try to change the laws of the land regarding abortion. I can devote my life and all my money to that cause, if I choose to do so. Freedom includes the right to( legally) invest your life as you choose to.
It has been mentioned before, but the terror factor in Lebanon more than likely has plenty to do with public opinion. Who's more likely to REALLY hurt someone for choosing the other side?
I appreciate Liquid's reminder that where there is power , there will be abuse of power.
I appreciate the fact that I live in a country where I am free to enjoy my own relationship with God, mistakes and all, without interference.

liquid

Truth Seeker---I think you titled that wrong, shouldn't it be the "Metastasizing Israel"? I see homosexuals, transsexuals, prostitutes, false priests in this picture. Last I checked, all those things are at least abhored by the Muslims (one of the few things to their credit), but are freely allowed, rather I should say, encouraged in Israel, the so-called "land of the people of God"
----------------------------------------

Awww I have to chuckle at this one! I suppose you fall for all the hypocrisy of how so many muslims say they are against homosexuality and yet do you refuse to take a look at Iran and Saudi where they hang many young men in the crime of homosexuality and how so many of those young men are falsely accused and put to death because perhaps they turned down some cleric or religious policeman's perverted sexual advances? Ask yourself how many times that probably has taken place? Or have you ever taken a look at the poor young women that are to be stoned or hanged for example to keep fear amongst the masses? You know...it's like how you hear muslims won't drink alcohol because Allah forbids it but since he doesn't mention drugs that so many in the middle east stay fogged up on opium and other hard drugs! Have you even looked to see the major drug problem in Iran? Or have you looked at all the many young women that get caught up as domestic slaves in Saudi thinking they are getting an opportunity to work in a good environment only to eventually become forced to become sex slaved prisoners and some even murdered? Are you aware of how many women in the muslim world are going in for sexual surgeries to change their gender in order to have some personal freedoms and rights to inherit their family's money? Do you know how muslims will go overnight and marry a young bride of as young as 13 to have sex with her and then within 24 hours divorce her? Do you know how many muslim men throw acid in their wives faces in Pakistan because their wife has born only girl children and the man is too ignorant to realise that the chromozone of gender is coming from his sperm and is not the woman's fault?

I guess Truth Seeker you need to do a little more "seeking" to find the truth eh as you continue to "judge" and compare the muslim world's morality to that of Israel!

Alexandra

RL.

You are talking more and more AT us rather than TO us. This is not a platform to simply post anti-Semitic comments, that are not addressing the post at all, but just contain links like Catholic Relief Services, you repeatedly throw out.

This is the third time I am asking you:

I asked you earlier, in order to attempt to politely understand your rabid anti-Semitic comments:
RL you are causing quite a stir...I have not known you to be this er, passionate before, in what seems to be the opposite to your usual direction. I know you are vehemently against Islamofascists. May I ask if you are perhaps of Lebanese descent, which may explain a few things...and may help us to understand your position a little better.
So, I ask again, what is your background? It certainly seems to affect your judgment on this issue quite drastically, to the point of insulting quite a few people here
I'm not exactly sure as to what the chicken-hawk zionists in the idf have, other than a whole bunch of unfortunately dead golani brigade mercenaries who returned home in body-bags.
You have been a commenter at ATB for a long time, interested in Christian issues and seemingly an anti-Islamofascist. You are now advocating Hezbollah, and are quite obviously not only simply anti-Israeli actions, but making obvious anti-Semite comments. I ask again, what is your cultural background, so that we may understand your position a little better.

RL

The Atomic and zionist state of Israel ?

Psalm 7:11
St. John 8:42-47
Romans 1:18-32

They are particularly fond of slaughtering innocent Arab children and faultless Arab women with American made and supplied weapons-systems; this is the true-expertise of the zionist state. ehud olmert is a lawyer, a zionist-terrorist, and a war-criminal. CRS.org

Truth Seeker

I think you titled that wrong, shouldn't it be the "Metastasizing Israel"? I see homosexuals, transsexuals, prostitutes, false priests in this picture. Last I checked, all those things are at least abhored by the Muslims (one of the few things to their credit), but are freely allowed, rather I should say, encouraged in Israel, the so-called "land of the people of God" who would make Moses roll over in his grave. The secular state of Israel has legalized euthanasia (murdering the sick and infirm) and of course were one of the first countries to legalize abortion. It is the only place where racial and religious bigotry is state-sanctioned and glorified-- and all at American tax payers' expense!

Please do not fall for the same hogwash that the secular state of "Israel can do no wrong", that the born-againer evangelicals have fallen for and the Israeli-controlled American media promotes. Please think for yourself. Secular Israel is NOT the same Israel as in the Old Testament. The New Israel is the Church, which Christ founded. This current Israel would make Jesus and all of the Old Testament prophets weep! Ask any devout, truly orthodox Jew. This secular country must be held accountable for its abhorant actions, just as any other country in the entire world is expected to do. It thinks it can run free reign, without having to answer to the world community, and if you speak up about this, you are automatically labeled an "anti=semite". It's funny, "anti=semite" no longer means "those who hate Jews", it has come to mean "those whom Jews hate".

P.S. You say that liberals are against Israel, but if that is so, why is it that the American Liberal media are in full favor of Israel? I have seen nothing that is contrary to support of Israel in American newspapers or television programs. To the contrary, all of the most liberal of liberal news media are in full support of Israel. Why is this? Think about it.

Dr Victorino de la Vega

Turning a man into a pliant “social” animal takes several years of “upbringing”: you have to remove all traces of humanity from him to produce a full-fledged Israeli sicari swordsman, a passionate Persian pasdaran or a fanatical fascist freak

Then, and only then, can he join the great horde

For machine-men prefer to hunt in packs

Just like urban gangsters and wild beasts

And they always submit to the pack leader

Be he High Priest, Imam, POTUS or Fuhrer...

mac Brachman

Thanks, Barry and Walid. Very informative. Sincerely, Mac Brachman

Barry Meislin

Walid Phares on Hizbullah's utlimate plan (prior to the breakout of hostilities three weeks ago) to usurp control of Lebanon.

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