I combined Francis Bacon's famous "Screaming Pope" with the original "Portrait of Innocent X" by Diego Rodriguez de Silva y Velázquez ca. 1650, Galleria Doria-Pamphilj, Rome, which inspired Bacon's iconic but churlish rendition of a Pope who "tenderly loved his subjects and was scrupulously just". Such is the curse of all who dare to speak the truth.
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Amen.
During Tuesday's lecture in Germany, Pope Benedict XVI quoted these penetrating words, which originated some 700 years ago from an exchange between the erudite Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.
How appropriate for the Holy Father to reflect on the cause, why the religion of Islam has always stood out from all other major religions on this Earth throughout its 1,500 year history:
Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God," he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."
And there it is. The apoplectic reaction of the Muslim world, which is barely in first gear of course, couldn't be a better testament to the continuing verity of the Byzantine Emperor's observations; no matter whether 1,500 years ago, 700 years ago or at the present day. Lost is the Pope's powerful call for an urgently needed dialogue between the religions of peace and Islam.
The darling Anchoress justly chastises the MSM for failing to "seriously reflect his thoughtful and deep words without sensationalizing them - the very idea!"
Don't miss reading the Pope's lecture in its entirety!
Whilst I am not able to write something myself on this at present, I must take a moment to pay tribute to one of my greatest heroines, and one of the most renowned journalists of our modern era, Oriana Fallaci, who died of cancer today aged 77. Relentlessly opposing Islamic extremists until her dying breath, she lived a life of passion and died a courageous death, always fighting for what she believed in.
An inspiration to us all, I loved her deeply not only for everything she bravely stood for, but for having the magnificent courage to say it. I am greatly saddened by her departure form a world which needs her now more than ever. Constantly forewarning us of the inevitabilities of an “Islamic colony” formerly known as Europe, she predicted much of the decay we see all too evident today.
Michelle Malkin has the most extensive write up, and don't miss reading Jeremayakovka's brilliant and deeply moving tribute here. To those of you who still need an introduction, read Daniel Pipes, who quotes one of my favorite poignant reminders from Fallaci:
To die a little less when I die. To leave the children I did not have... . To make people think a little more, outside the dogmas that this society has nourished us with through centuries. To give stories and ideas that help people to see better, to think better, to know a little more.
salams
if anyone like kenny or liquid or any other person want to talk then plz just email me @ azhar-c@hotmail.com
thanks agian
Posted by: Azhar | Tuesday, January 16, 2007 at 09:43 PM
salams to all my muslims brother and sisters
all i wanna say to this whole conversation to all the people that do not accept islam is that to do research on islam and discover islam and its true beauty.
i myself am a 17 year old male,who grew up knowing so much of the
quran and knowledge about islam,but i never followed it
upon researching islam several times a day b4 i went to bed and researching the beauty and nature of islam i now i understand it and i am so happy allah chose me to gain this knowledge that i have right now
there was a time when i was in private skol(darul-loom al madina
sobeski street in new york,buffalo)and tried to memorize the quran and get knowledge of islam but i didnt understand anything back then and never payed attention and by the time i left i only memorized the first parah which was really sad since ive been thr for almost 2 years
anywayz what iam tryign to say is that all the knowledge i got from there i mean most of it i forgot day by day bcuz of the enivornment i lived in afterwards.
now iam striving to achevie more knowledge of islam and its beauty and studying day by day and trying to help my freinds but none of them listen and trying to repent for all the bad deeds i done in the past
"it takes time to become a good muslim,but to become a non-believer it takes not time at all"
some quotes to help u better understand islam:
By Him in whose hand my soul is,no one is a [perfect] believer until they wish for thier brother what they wish for themselves.
Allah does not wrong anyone.A believer is rewarded both here and in the hereafter.A disbeliver is rewarded [only] in this world for all of his good deeds.Thus,when he goes to the hereafter,he has no [more] deeds for which he can be rewarded there.
The World is a prison for the believers and a paradise for the disbelievers.
By Prophet Muhammad(saw)
Live in this world as though you are a stranger or a traveler[passing through it].
Take advantage of five things before five others occur.Your youth before you grow old;your health before you become sick;your wealth before you become poor;your leisure before you become busy; and your life before u die.
Allah,the Lord of Honor and Glory,says,
"Whoever does one good deed will receive ten rewards,or even more;whoever sins once will be punished in proportion to it,or i may pardon him..."
Soon this life will be past;everything we do for allah is all that will last.
Day by Day iam changing in to a better person bcuz of experiences ive had in the past and ppl i met in the private skol who were so kind-hearted and inshallah i hope to c them one day if not in this world then the here after
sorry if i said anything to affend anyone and if i have done so plz do forgive me
my muslim brothers and sisters who posted comments on this site i thank u very much for helping me understand this world better;may allah have mercy on all our souls in this world and the here after. especially u liquid ^_^ inshallah i can meet u one day
salams and thank you agian
Posted by: Azhar | Tuesday, January 16, 2007 at 09:40 PM
You all say you can't understand the anger muslims have towards people who exhibit Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) our most beloved man that ever lived as an average terrorist. That is probably because he means nothing to you, but to us muslims he is the last messenger of God and the most perfect man to ever live. Us muslims too believe in the Virgin Mary, and we do detest those who do run vile and offensive pictures of her in the paper or magazine. What you all see on the news is the type of Islam that the government wants you to see. It is not about converting people whether violently or not, but of course I wish for people to believe what I do because I believe that I am right, but it is not unlike you would like for people to believe what you believe because you believe you're right.
You say you make a huge deal out of people who kill other people, and yet I do not seeing you make a huge deal about what the Israelie army did to the country and CIVILIANS of Lebanon. Now I know you might say that they were trying to get rid of Hezbollah and trying to help the people of Lebanon, but MILLIONS of young children and women died at the hand of that army over the past 20 years. Infact most of the women and children were killed in the bombing of children's hospitals and houses, not army bases. This crisis did not start this summer it was merely picking up where it was left and the 2 Israelie prisoners that were taken by Hezbollah were on Lebanese soil where as the hundreds of thousands of prisoners that Israel has held captive for over 20 years now were in their own country.
I do not hold the entire race or religion of the men that killed children in the Israeli army responsible, I give blame to the army and only the army itself. I don't hold the whole race of Christians responsible for the Presidents actions in Iraq, and it would be stupid to. Also about the "starting of fights"...Islam itself has not started any fights, it is people that call themselves Muslims that started the fights. Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are both examples of that. I absolutely do not support Al-Qaeda or Osama Bin-Laden. You must understand that Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are psychos that try to use the Quran as an excuse or reason for their actions. There are 2 types of Muslims there are Sunni Muslims and Shiite muslims, Al-Qaeda and OBL like to call themselves sunni muslims, and although most of the Sunni Muslims I know are not like OBL and Al-Qaeda, there are some that are. OBL and Al-Qaeda oppose the Shiite Muslims very much because of the reason that we don't believe what they do, But every religion and race has it's psychos facists and zionists.
All in all I just want you to understand why the Pope's comments were offensive to me as if anyone said things like that about someone you loved (and it wasn't true which it's not) you would be offended. And I know that those words were not his own, the fact that he thought it relevent to repeat them shows that he believes them and yes that offends Muslims like myself. Personally I did not go burn any efiggy's of the Pope, but the fact that people did just shows the passion and sensitivity on this issue and the importance of Muhammad and the way he has impacted our lives.
The fact that you said that we do not believe in Jesus the way that you do is correct, but I do believe in Jesus unlike people who have no religion. Also I'm sure that if I were rude enough to express in your presence my considered opinion of The Bible (also as a result of many readings, and the apparent contradiction of itself multiple times) you, would find it offensive.
Also if you have read most of these posts, many of these people do think that Islam is completely evil, or if they don't they have failed to show so in their comments.
Thank You for your time
Posted by: Shorty | Sunday, November 26, 2006 at 01:28 AM
Shorty,
Take it up with your own home boys. It is offensive to me to see a newspaper run a defecatory picture of the Virgin Mary. But the difference between running an offensive picture of the Virgin Mary and a cartoon of Mohammed, is that there are about 100 million Muslims in the world who will support the idea of killing people who print cartoons of Mohammed. I am perfectly well aware that that leaves 900 million Muslims who do not support such violence, which I presume is what you mean by saying that killing people is "not what muslims are out to do." I am very pleased that killing infidels is not what most Muslims are out to do. But you cannot possibly sit there with a straight face and deny that killing infidels is what many Muslims are out to do.
Meanwhile, there are as many Christians in the world as Muslims; yet I defy you to find 100 million Christians ready to applaud the killing of a newspaper editor who runs a vile and offensive picture of the Virgin Mary.
So you can be angry with sites like this that recognize that 100 million nutcase Islamofascists are a problem that must be faced -- by all people of good will, including Muslims of good will such as yourself -- or you could try being angry with the Islamofascists themselves. Considering that Islamofascists are very much better at killing fellow Muslims than they are at killing infidels, I'd think you'd want to be on our side.
Islam does not, by the way, "believe in Jesus" in any way that actually shows respect for the Christian tradition (which it believes is grotesquely wrong in what it teaches about Jesus) or for historical evidence (which it dismisses as lies and forgeries). But as somebody who doesn't think it's offensive when other people disagree with my religious views, I am not in the slightest offended by your refusal to believe that Jesus was very God of very God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. I'm pretty confident, however, that if I were rude enough to express in your presence my considered opinion of Mohammed (as a result of multiple readings of the Koran, and of the historical record of his behavior), you would find it "offensive."
You see, Alexandra and most of those of us who agree with her, do not actually make a huge issue out of a difference in beliefs. We make a huge deal out of people who kill other people; and it happens that the Islamofascists use their religion to rationalize their bloodthirstiness. It is the height of absurdity for you to say -- when for the past twenty years every deadly religious conflict in the world outside of Ireland has had Muslim instigators on at least one, and frequently both, of the sides involved -- that we are the ones "wanting to start fights." You mistake us entirely. We do not want to start fights. But we do damn well think that once somebody else has started a fight, we ought to betake ourselves to finishing it.
You are not, if you genuinely are opposed to the imposition of sharia and to the practice of jihad, our enemy; you are in fact our natural, and welcome, ally. But you can't expect us to take you seriously if you berate Alexandra for blaming you, as a Muslim, for the behavior of Islamofascists, when she has herself distinguished between the Islamofascist 10% and the moderate 90% on many an occasion. Do you want us to blame you for the murderous behavior of al Qaeda? I presume the answer is, "No." Well, then, when we criticize the Islamofascists, don't act like we're criticising you.
(There are two or three regular commenters who would argue that Islam is intrinsically evil; I'm not saying you can't go after them to your heart's content. But that is not Alexandra's contention, nor that of the majority of her commenters.)
Posted by: Kenny | Monday, October 16, 2006 at 04:42 PM
To all of you who say that Islam is wrong because the violence involved if you would take a second to look at your own statements you are contradicting yourself...as a muslim I respect every religion and that's how I believe it should be. It is stupid however that you sit degrading Islam who believes in Jesus rather than directing you're hate toward athiests. By the way it is offending to hear the words of the pope saying these things about our prophet just as if I were to say something like that about him, and I had a lot of respect for the pope before that statement. Those who say Islam is the enemy just proves that you are the one wanting to start fights, and problems. I have no problem with christian people I have many christian friends and we are close. The only problem is there are these closed minded people in the world like you that make a difference in beliefs a huge issue, now i am not on the verge of killing any of my non-muslim friends under "the sword" actually I think it's quite ammusing when people think that is what muslims are out to do because it's not. Many quotes of the Quran are taken out of context and misinterpreted and I think it is just very sad that people are so narrow-minded.
Posted by: Shorty | Sunday, October 15, 2006 at 10:53 AM
Another voice that tells it like it is
Carey backs Pope and issues warning on 'violent' Islam
Posted by: Liquid | Wednesday, September 20, 2006 at 05:27 PM
I just found this blog. I couldn't add it to my blogroll fast enough.
Posted by: kevin | Wednesday, September 20, 2006 at 02:55 AM
The only good ghosts I ever saw were dead.
Posted by: Darrell | Tuesday, September 19, 2006 at 12:00 AM
Ghost---Well, ok Liquid... I just don't believe the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. We should at least make reservations for them, and refrain from giving them infected blankets.
-------------------------------------
Ghost, I have never once said that the only good muslim is a dead muslim. NEVER! I have a problem with the ideology that stems from the Quran and the actions of those that force subjugation and murder in the name of Allah.
See, I don't have a problem with naming the enemy...it's ISLAM, which is a political movement disguised as a religion.
Posted by: Liquid | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 11:29 PM
Well, ok Liquid... I just don't believe the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. We should at least make reservations for them, and refrain from giving them infected blankets.
Stories behind Famous Sayings
The Saying: THE ONLY GOOD INDIAN IS A DEAD INDIAN.
Who Said It: Gen. Philip Sheridan
When: 1869
The Story behind It: In January, 1869, General Sheridan held a conference with 50 Indian chiefs at Fort Cobb in the so-called Indian Territory (later part of Oklahoma). At that time, Sheridan, who had gained recognition as a Union officer in the Civil War, was in charge of the Dept. of the Missouri. One of his duties was to oversee the Indian Territory, making sure that the Indians remained on their reservations and did not harass the white settlers. When Comanche chief Toch-a-way was introduced to Sheridan at the conference, the Indian said, "Me Toch-a-way, me good Indian." Sheridan reportedly smirked and replied, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." Later on, the remark became "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."
Check out Liberal Islam Net!
http://www.liberalislam.net/
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 06:51 PM
Perhaps, it is evident in my previous comment, but I should make clear the essence of my comment, which is that, the propensity of Muslims to act violently in response to issues such as this proves the point that Islam is a violent religion.
Posted by: slowtrain | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 05:25 PM
Greetings to all! My apologies, especially to Kenny Pierce, for dropping out of the sphere for quite sometime, thus leaving my end of some threads hanging and untied, as it were. I am still extremely busy, but I just had to throw in my two cents on this topic.
It seems to me that the question borne by the quotation, which provoked the current firestorm, is still relevant, even today (700 years later). But as always, Muslims once again, and in typical fashion have avoided the issue by demanding unnecessary apologies for an issue that does not merit an apology, through intimidation and threats of violence, rather than debate the issue or challenge and overturn the Emperor’s statement, by presenting evidence to the contrary. I am yet to hear anyone, Muslims or the cowering Western liberal media, disprove the Emperor’s assessment. All I hear is rationalization and condemnation for speaking the truth. No one really denies that Mohammed frequently resorted to violence to achieve his goal or that Islam was established by violence, history bears that truth for anyone who cares for the truth. The issue is with justification, Mohammed believed, and most Muslims believe that the violence was justified, just as they do today when a suicide bomber blows himself or herself up in Israel, London, Spain or when terrorists blowup innocent people, be it in Iraq, Spain, Israel, United Kingdom, Spain or the United States.
The fact that Muslims respond violently or in a manner that cutoff dialogue, to statements such as this or any statement about Islam that they regard as critical of Islam, whether such statements is true or false, is proof of the violent nature of Islam. Ultimately, people act from their base or domain of reason or lack thereof. Such is the case with most Muslims, as was the case just a few months ago on the cartoon debacle and now with a quotation about Mohammed and Islam.
What is more troubling is the zeal with which the Western liberal media fall all over one another to panda and placate Muslims, by never failing to point to the crusades, as if to excuse Islam and the violence that continue to be committed in the name of Islam. The Newsweek article on MSNBC wrote:
“And by speaking of jihad without alluding to Christianity’s dark history of violence in the name of God—the Crusades, forced conversions, pogroms, the Inquisition—Benedict seemed to be denouncing Islam while failing to acknowledge that any religion, including his own, can be manipulated and perverted to evil ends.”
The article quoted William A. Graham, the dean of the Harvard Divinity School as saying:
“It is very hard to construe the pope’s remarks in a benign way.” Graham said further, “Historically, there is no more basis for arguing that Islam is irrational than there is for arguing the same about Christianity or Judaism. In all three you can find tremendous discussion about revelation and reason, and there are people in all three who have landed outside the rational. Islam has bloody borders right now, but Christianity has certainly been bloody, as has Judaism in its more extreme forms.”
There you have it. There is no greater excuse, perhaps, justification for the violence now being committed around the world, particularly the jihad that is now being waged against the West. After all, according to Professor William A. Graham, on account of the crusades; the Islamofascists have the right to act as they do. The notion that “Islam spread far more thoroughly by proselytizing than by the sword,” is utterly preposterous; this assessment is nothing short of magical thinking.
As I have said before, with regards to Islam, the crusades were provoked by the unmitigated Islamic expansion, by violent invasions, which as historian Bernard Lewis, in his book Islam and the West, said, “For almost a thousand years . . . Europe was under constant threat. In the early centuries it was a double threat—not only of invasion and conquest, but also of conversion and assimilation. All but the easternmost provinces of the Islamic realm had been taken from Christian rulers, and the vast majority of the first Muslims west of Iran and Arabia were converts from Christianity. North Africa, Egypt, Syria, even Persian-ruled Iraq, had been Christian countries, in which Christianity was older and more deeply rooted than in most of Europe. Their loss was sorely felt and heightened the fear that a similar fate was in store for Europe.”
What Professor William A. Graham fail to say, is that those conversions were coerced, as remains today in virtually all Islamic countries, for example Afghanistan and Pakistan, people had no choice but convert to Islam and remain converted. That is hardly proselytizing in any sense of the word.
Why is it that when it comes to Islam, truth and freedom of speech are quickly and easily subjugated?
Posted by: slowtrain | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 05:01 PM
Ghost--"To some degree we're talking past each other Liquid. There are Laws in place to handle Churches and Mosques that incite hate and violence. First Amendment has to be dealt with, but there are exceptions to the First Amendment.
The Monarchy of Saudi Arabia are Wahabbist... Islamic Fundamentalists that breed extremism.
One would really have to question why, if not, pressure isn't being put on these Mosques.
I just think a broad-brush indictment of Islamic Theology is just so much more agit prop."
============================
Ghost, while you wrestle with defining which sect of Islam is more deviant than another, I want to explain to you that avoiding the core of the issue where all this militant islamic bullying is coming from, serves no purpose but to sugar coat the movement rolling at us. It's a type of denial that helps one cope with the ugliness that we are facing I guess, but trying to stay focused on another sect that is being bullied or will be bullied isn't really going to help us on the war is it? For example, do you honestly think that Wahabbi type Islam is contained in Saudi? The internal conflicts and constant fighting for control (the I am the truer of the 'real islam' mentality) has always been a problem inside the islamic world. Islam is ran like the mob Ghost! Islam cannot separate it's politics from it's religion! Just because you see muslims living in the west that have decided on a secular watered down type of Islam, doesn't mean that the political or militant gears of Islam isn't churning in the background. Ask muslims around the world if they haven't seen mosques being bullied! Ask those that want reform how difficult it is! Islam hasn't had reform because Islam won't allow it!
Ghost, when you typed "I just think a broad-brush indictment of Islamic Theology is just so much more agit prop." I couldn't help but laugh, because even if one tries to paint it as propoganda the reality is that you won't find two muslims that totally agree on Islamic Theology! That's nothing new, but what is at the core of all muslims is the Quran despite how each try to interpret it and what we in the west are dealing with today are those that choose to use it both politically and militantly against us. The spiritual aspect is directed towards their own in hope that they can indoctorine and recruite for their holy jihad. The disguised religious aspect is the store front of deception that allows it to walk and talk inside our society. Strip off the veneer of "religion" and you have nothing more than a political movement.
Ghost, why do you see muslims capable of uniting around the world to protest and act out violence together on matters of cartoons or quotes from a lecture and yet they can't or won't unite to stop this radicalism amongst themselves? When was the last time you saw muslims marching in the street with signs of "Go to hell Osama" or "Jihadist are evil" or " Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is crazy".........You won't ever see it Ghost, because underneath it all, they support it in their silence or they support it because they are bullied into the support. Who do you think it out there bullying them?
Ghost, one of the five pillars of Islam is to take the pilgramage to Mecca, and this unites all types of Islam doesn't it? Doesn't matter what sect of Islam you fit into does it? We can use our broad brush there can't we? Ghost do you know what takes place there each year? Do you think it's only throwing stones at the Devil? If all of Islam were against this "non peaceful" type Islam, then why do they continue to allow it to grow and bully others? All muslims share Allah's commands via the Quran and All muslims share Mecca, which is controlled by Wahabbi and a mixture of Salafism.
Ghost, All these beheadings, suicide bombers, and hacking up of others are not just some new tactic the muslims have learned recently--its all their past traditions that are theologically sanctioned and justified via their Quran and their prophet's words. The enemy is continuing to unite against us and are alreayd on the battle field in their hearts and minds and to them; those muslims that refuse to unite with them in the future will just be trampled on as the Holy Jihad movement marches on! Just because the west won't admit this-- doesn't mean that it's not happening--Islam's political movement is pressing on to undermine all the western governments.
Posted by: Liquid | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 03:48 PM
To Bible believing Christians Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and those Christian Identity groups, and Islam itself are considered to be false religions that have a basis in the Judeo-Christian tradition and Scripture but have been perverted by men.That being said I have spent a lot of time in "fundamentalist" Christian churches and have never come across anyone who harbors ill will or violence toward any other denomination. We can believe they are deceived or unsaved or even under Satanic influence;but the remedy to that is to show them the love of Christ in all our dealings with them.
If someone has anti-Semitic feelings I would say that person does not spend much time studying Scripture.Anyone can call themselves Christian but if they are not living a Christ honoring life they are not the real thing. Now unfortunately many of these "extremist" Muslims are following chapter and verse in their holy writings.So they can back up their violence by pointing to the Koran and calling the moderates apostate.
Apostates to the Koran following "extemists" are in the same boat as the Christians and the Jews. They can be put to death.
I am amused by the Episcopalian reference.Is that supposed to refer to a Christian who goes to church but does not take it so seriously as to believe everything the Bible says and leaves most of it for Sunday where it belongs? I guess that is the kind of Muslim we need, one who doesn't know the Koran that well or follow it too closely.
I have a hard time understanding how any educated Muslim can condone the hatred and violence that breaks out every time someone condemns their religion for being violent and hate-filled.In protesting the insult they prove the point time and again.Why don't they see this and speak up? Oh wait they are afraid of members of their own religion.
Islam itself is becoming less a religion and more a political movement like Naziism or Fascism that wants to overturn sovereign nations and control the world through force.In this country it is protected as a religion as it spreads its domination through violence message. At what point do we start treating it as more than a religion?
Posted by: Deva | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 12:07 PM
To some degree we're talking past each other Liquid. There are Laws in place to handle Churches and Mosques that incite hate and violence. First Amendment has to be dealt with, but there are exceptions to the First Amendment.
The Monarchy of Saudi Arabia are Wahabbist... Islamic Fundamentalists that breed extremism.
One would really have to question why, if not, pressure isn't being put on these Mosques.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/
http://www.adl.org/internet/print.asp
I just think a broad-brush indictment of Islamic Theology is just so much more agit prop.
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 05:23 AM
Can't you ban Ghost for reproducing Patti Smith lyrics without attribution? If not, how about for a hundred other reasons? Because he's a bore? Because he should be paying for the bandwidth he takes? Because...
Lyrics - Dancing Barefoot
She is benediction
She is addicted to thee
She is the rude connection
She is connecting with he
Here I go and I don't know why
I feel so ceaselessly
Could it be he's taking over me
I'm dancing barefoot heading for a spin
Some strange music draws me in
Makes me come on like some heroine
She is sublimation
She is the essence of thee
She is concentrating on he
Who is chosen by she
I'm dancing barefoot heading for a spin
Some strange music draws me in
Makes me come on like some heroine
She is re-creation
She intoxicated by thee
She has the slow sensation
That he is levitating with she
Here I go and I don't know why
I spin so ceaselessly
Till I lose my sense of gravity
I'm dancing barefoot heading for a spin
Some strange music draws me in
Makes me come on like some heroine
The plot of our life sweats in the dark like a face
The mystery of childbirth, of childhood itself
Grave visitations, what is it that calls to us
Why must we pray screaming
Why must not death be redefined
We shut our eyes
We stretch out our arms
And Whirl on a pane of glass
An afixation a fix on anything
The line of life the limb of tree
The hands of he
The promise that she
Is blessed among women
Oh god, I fell for you
Posted by: Darrell | Monday, September 18, 2006 at 12:18 AM
Ghost--The Mormons and Jehovahs, and Jews, and Hindus, and the Muslims, for that matter, in this Country practice their religion like good Episcopaleans... as it should be, and we should want to keep it that way.
==================================
Is that so Ghost? How do you know? Are you privy to what is being taught in the mosque and the schools in America? Hasn't hate literature been found in mosque here in America?
Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques
---------------
Ghost---Heck... I'm just as "concerned" about "Christian Identity" as I am about al qaeda. Same cloth... same extremism.
================================
Ghost, it's okay if you are an Islamist apologetic, but seriously, get real...Christians today get scrutinized over everything and you don't see them making threats of suicide bombing or standing on the street with signs like this! Let's take a look at
Just outside Westminster Cathedral today
It's sad that you can't tell the difference.
Posted by: Liquid | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 09:55 PM
The thread is about people doing broad-brushed attacks on Islam; a combination of religion, culture, history and politics, as if Osama Bin Ladin and Ahmadinijad and Nasrallah trully speak for all of Islam.
From an American perspective, we have nothing against Islam... nor does, evidently, the Pontif.
Islam is not a "bad" religion... it has internal contradictions just like every other religion... not the least of which is Christianity.
The Mormons and Jehovahs, and Jews, and Hindus, and the Muslims, for that matter, in this Country practice their religion like good Episcopaleans... as it should be, and we should want to keep it that way.
Heck... I'm just as "concerned" about "Christian Identity" as I am about al qaeda. Same cloth... same extremism.
"The term "Christian Identity" has two distinct meanings:
Anglo-Israelism (a.k.a. British-Israelism): A theological belief that the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Scandinavian, Germanic and associated cultures are the racial descendents of the tribes of Israel. Thus, by extension, Americans and Canadians, are composed of the descendents of the ancient Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).
Racist, Christian-based faith groups: A number of small, extremely conservative Fundamentalist Christian denominations which have accepted Anglo-Israelism, and grafted it to racist, sexist, anti-communist and homophobic beliefs. They view the Jewish people as descendants of Satan. Followers tend to be involved in political movements opposing gun control, equal rights to gays and lesbians, and militia movements.
The Christian Identity movement is a movement of many extremely conservative Christian churches and religious organizations, extreme right wing political groups and survival groups. Some are independent; others are loosely interconnected. According to Professor Michael Barkun, one of the leading experts in the Christian Identity movement, "This virulent racist and anti-Semitic theology, which is practiced by over 50,000 people in the United States alone, is prevalent among many right wing extremist groups and has been called the 'glue' of the racist right."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
So, 'ya think Chistian Theology led them to these beliefs... should be held accountable... is flawed?
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 08:22 PM
Ghost Dansing, "Heck... Liquid's comments could be hurled in derision of the Mormon's for Pete's sake!;
Well for Pete's Sake Ghost, I will tell you this...IF mormon's start throwing around a doctorine along with actions like certain muslims are doing with Islam then I will address them, but it isn't Mormons that are doing the evil deeds today when they are put under scrutiny of any kind is it? You have made your point that a cult is a cult but in this thread it's about Islam throwing a tantrum and using their "I am offended" and their making demands of "You better do this or that" or ELSE attitude that turns of threats and violence isn't it? When was the last time you saw a mormon threaten the pope or the vatican with suicide bombing because of some comments about polygamy? Let me know, because I musta missed it Ghost. Otherwise your comparison really doesn't make much sense.
Posted by: Liquid | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 07:54 PM
"Ghost Dancing: what the heck is the value of that comment?"
Look, one guy studies the Quran and Haddith and proclaims "Islam is not a religion". See Bonner's post...
And all of you talk like you actually "know" what Islam is... when evidently there are just a few controversial divisions, schools of thought, layers, opinions and what not all through Islam, that make it, at least, not quite the homogenous monolith one might suspect.
It actually looks like Islam suffers from much of the same symptoms as Christianity; struggling with interpretations, problems of authority, and historical accomodations with and influences by outside factors... like Greek philosophy.
Heck... Liquid's comments could be hurled in derision of the Mormon's for Pete's sake!
The Mormon religion was founded by Joseph Smith around 1830 in the United States of America. It is a fast growing religious movement with more than 4 million adherents worldwide. Mormonism teaches that historical Christianity is totally apostate, and God raised up Joseph Smith as a prophet to restore it.
In addition to using the Bible (which they believe is corrupted), mormons believe that the "revelations" received by Joseph Smith which came to be written down as the "Book of Mormon" are Scripture. They also base their religious system on two other books: "Doctrines and Covenants" and "The Pearl of Great Price" as well as the pronouncements of their "living prophets", which they teach are Scripture and binding on all true believers.
Mormonism spreads primarily through its worldwide missionary efforts - good mormons are required to do two years missionary service. Mormonism appeals to many on the basis of its appeal to strong family values. But when you look deeper into this mysterious and fascinating religion, you will find all kinds of bizarre practices and beliefs.
Mormonism teaches that God was once a man, and that man may become a God (through mormonism, of course). Mormons are taught that God the Father is now on a planet near the star Kolob with his wives having spiritual children. They believe that Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) were once spirit brothers. They once taught that Jesus was married to more than one wife (I'm not sure if this doctrine is still taught). Some of the other fascinating religious beliefs of this group are listed below later in this page.
http://www.christian-faith.com/religion/mormon.html
And what about Jehovah's Witness?
Jehovah's Witnesses are members of an international religion who believe they are the restoration of first-century Christianity. Their preaching, evangelistic, and publishing activities are extensive, with congregations in most parts of the world. Their most widely-known publications are the religious magazines, The Watchtower and Awake!. Headquartered in Brooklyn, New York, they are directed by a Governing Body. Each local congregation is overseen by a group of elders, who are appointed by representatives of the Governing Body. Official membership of the organization currently stands at over 6.6 million.
There is a radical, Islamic Extremist cult (actually there are several emanating from both Sunni and Shia camps) that are militant and employing terrorist tactics, killing a lot of innocent people. There is a majority of mainstream Muslims, that see these people as a problem... not only for religious reasons, but because the extremists intend to overthrow the monarchies, secular governments and traditional theocratic arrangements in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq? and Pakistan, to name a few... in order to establish Taliban-like governments.
America, with its tolerant, Liberal Constitution, Declaration of Independence, separation of Church and State, and generally good manners does not have an issue with Islam per se. Evidently, neither does the Pope.
The first most important part of any problem-solving endeavor is stating the problem correctly.
Discussing and evaluating comparative Theologies is a wonderful academic endeavor... however, at the level of Foreign Policy in the face of international terrorism by Islamic extremists, the issue is not Theological, but very very political.
It is, as it has often historically been the case, an issue of conflict between the concept of rigid, dictatorial, fascist modes of governance, and modes of governance derived from the ideas of Liberal political philosophy.
Osama bin Ladin is fighting Liberalism in his own muslim world, he is fighting Liberalism in Europe, Liberalism in the United States, Liberal ideas in Saudi Arabia and the Middle East... he wants external ideas...Liberal ideas OUT. He wants an Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban... If he were Shia, he'd like Iran as it is... a dictatorial theocracy, with no Liberalism.
I like the Mormons, and the Jehovah Witnesses... I want them to be able to peacefully practice their religion within the law, values and norms of mutual respect and tolerance... I like the Muslims too... and the Jews, and the Hindus and all the rest... I believe in Freedom of Religion, because I'm an American, and a Christian. I advocate projecting these Liberal values throughout the world, and hope that one day, we will see a Liberal Islam bloom and prosper.
And I would also say that even if one spoils for a great "Holy" war on some Theological plane... most warriors have learned it prudent to respect your enemy.
"In 1952, Catholic Archbishop Fulton Sheen devoted a chapter in his book, “The World's First Love”, entitled “Mary and the Moslems”. In it, he wrote that it is his firm belief that Moslems will eventually be converted in Christianity, thanks to the devotion they already have to the Virgin Mary. In fact, God the Father seems to have a special plan to draw the Moslems to Jesus through His Mother, Mary.
Bishop Sheen wrote: “In the Koran, the Virgin Mary is mentioned thirty times. It believes in Her Immaculate Conception, and also, in Her Virgin Birth. It has also verses on the Annunciation, Visitation, and Nativity. Angels are pictured as accompanying the Blessed Mother and saying: ‘Oh, Mary, God has chosen you and purified you, and elected you above all the women of the earth.’ Mary, then, is for the Moslems the true Sayyida, or Lady. The only possible serious rival to her in their creed would be Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed himself. But after the death of Fatima, Mohammed wrote: ‘Thou shalt be the most blessed of all the women in Paradise, after Mary.’ In a variant of the text, Fatima is made to say, ‘I surpass all the women, except Mary.’
“This brings us to our second point: namely, why the Blessed Mother, in the 20th century should have revealed Herself in the significant little village of Fatima, Portugal, so that to all future generations she would be known as ‘Our Lady of Fatima.’ Since nothing ever happens out of Heaven except with a finesse of all details, I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as ‘Our Lady of Fatima’ as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Moslem people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her divine Son too... I believe the Blessed Virgin chose to be known by the name Fatima because she also came for the conversion of Islam, without which there cannot be an era of peace for mankind."
http://www.michaeljournal.org/marymoslems.htm
http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_5/images/bvm.jpg
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 07:18 PM
Ghost,
You cut and pasted "Muslims believe that God revealed his direct word for humanity to Muhammad (c. 570– July 6, 632) through the angel Gabriel and earlier prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet, based on the Qur'anic phrase "Seal of the Prophets" and sayings of the prophet of Islam himself, and that his teachings for humanity will last until the Day of the Resurrection. Muslims assert that the main written record of revelation to humanity is the Qur'an, which is flawless, immutable, and which Muslims believe is the final revelation of God to humanity."
---------------------
This is full of flaws just like the Quran itself is. For one, muslims do not respect Jesus, and they do not follow the other true prophets pre-islamic perverted interpretations. Their final authority comes from the mouth of one man that is a false prophet-- whose words are via the quran. They, are just like an abusive adulterous husband, which is always out whoring around with others, yet is constantly coming home to accuse his wife of the very thing he is doing, by choosing to paint others and project onto others the evil they themselves are doing. Who rewrote and distorted the truth? Who distorts and perverts the gospels? One can read the quran and see where it perverts the gospels and totally changes the whole concept and personality of Jesus. The Jesus of the quran is NOT the same Jesus of the gospels. Mohammed totally rewrote the truth and did so in a spirit of hate towards anyone that wouldn't bow down to his authority, because the entire quran is based on the authority of this one man named mohammed which muslims claim was of divine character and yet the bible warns us of other gospels even though they are not gospels at all. Galatians 1:6-10 teaches us that "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ."
Islam's very birth is about "an angel" giving Mohammed a "different gospel" and unfortunately, muslims all around the world are decieved by this and are trying to please a man's reinvention of a pagan moon god. The conflicting troubles today always arises when someone questions it or criticises it. Bottom line is that Islam is not strong enough to stand up to scrutiny so it chooses 'victim mode' and bullying through inflicting terror and fear upon others.
Posted by: Liquid | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 04:19 PM
Ghost Dancing: what the heck is the value of that comment?
Posted by: Michael van der Galien | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 03:19 PM
Liquid very good point. I believe I remember reading something about that myself a while ago. It seems to be some sociopathic type of behavior.
You are right, there is no love, tolerance nor respect in them. Even today, a Catholic said at the moderate voice, that he was ashamed of this Pope for, and I quote, "spewing hatred". That person firstly never read the Pope's lecture, or, if he did, he is deceiving. There was nothing 'hateful' about the lecture of the Pope. It was, instead - well, partially at least, a call for dialogue based on reason.
Posted by: Michael van der Galien | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 03:17 PM
Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-islām (help·info)) is a monotheistic religion based upon the Qur'an, which adherents believe was sent by God (Arabic: Allāh) through Muhammad. Followers of Islam, known as Muslims (Arabic: مسلم), believe Muhammad to have been God's final prophet; most of them see the historic record of the actions and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad related in the Sunnah and Hadith as indispensable tools for interpreting the Qur'an.
Like Judaism and Christianity, Islam is considered an Abrahamic religion.[1] Although disputed, it is estimated that there are 1.4 billion adherents[2], making Islam the second-largest religion in the world. The majority of Muslims are not Arabs (only 20 percent of Muslims originate from Arab countries). [3] At current rates, Islam will soon become the second largest religion in the United States, [4] and it is already the second largest faith in the UK [5].
Secular historians place Islam's beginnings during the late 7th century in Arabia. Under the leadership of Muhammad and his successors, Islam rapidly spread by religious conversion and military conquest.[6] Today, followers of Islam may be found throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East, North Africa, South Asia and Southeast Asia.
Muslims believe that God revealed his direct word for humanity to Muhammad (c. 570– July 6, 632) through the angel Gabriel and earlier prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet, based on the Qur'anic phrase "Seal of the Prophets" and sayings of the prophet of Islam himself, and that his teachings for humanity will last until the Day of the Resurrection. Muslims assert that the main written record of revelation to humanity is the Qur'an, which is flawless, immutable, and which Muslims believe is the final revelation of God to humanity.
Muslims hold that Islam is the same belief as that of all the messengers sent by God to humanity since Adam, with the Qur'an, the text used by all sects of the Muslim faith, codifying the final revelation of God. Islamic texts depict Judaism and Christianity as prophetic successor traditions to the teachings of Abraham. The Qur'an calls Jews and Christians "People of the Book", and distinguishes them from "Polytheists". However, Muslims believe that some people have distorted the word of God by deliberately altering words in meaning, form and placement in their respective holy texts, such as Jews changing the Torah and Christians the Injeel. This perceived distortion is known as tahrif, or tabdīl, meaning "alteration, substitution".
Muslims believe that the Qur'an is perfect only as revealed in the original Arabic. Translations, they maintain, are the result of human effort, and are deficient because of differences in human languages, because of the human fallibility of translators, and (not least) because any translation lacks the inspired content found in the original. Translations are therefore regarded only as commentaries on the Qur'an, or "interpretations of its meaning", not as the Qur'an itself. Many modern, printed versions of the Qur'an feature the Arabic text on one page, and a vernacular translation on the facing page.
The Sharia (Arabic for "well-trodden path") is Islamic law, as shown by traditional Islamic scholarship. The Qur'an is the foremost source of Islamic jurisprudence. The second source is the sunnah of Muhammad and the early Muslim community. The sunnah is not itself a text like the Qur'an, but it is the practical adherence of Muslims to matters of worship. The place of hadith is a disputed one in Islamic law. Hadith (Arabic for report) contains narrations of Muhammad's sayings, deeds, and actions. According to a few scholars, such as Imam Shafi'i, it is secondary to Qur'an, whereas others, such as Imam Malik and the Hanafi scholars, hold it in subjugation to sunnah and often times reject a hadith if it goes against established practices, i.e. sunnah. Ijma (consensus of the community of Muslims) and qiyas (analogical reasoning) are generally regarded as the third and fourth sources of Sharia, but have been contested by some scholars, based on the source (a hadith) from which these are derived. They believe that according to Qur'an, there are other sources that be given higher importance instead.
Islamic law covers all aspects of life, from the broad topics of governance and foreign relations all the way down to issues of daily living. Islamic laws that were covered expressly in the Qur’an were referred to as hudud laws and include specifically the five crimes of theft, highway robbery, intoxication, adultery and falsely accusing another of adultery, each of which has a prescribed "hadd" punishment that cannot be forgone or mitigated. The Qur'an also details laws of inheritance, marriage, restitution for injuries and murder, as well as rules for fasting, charity, and prayer. However, the prescriptions and prohibitions may be broad, so how they are applied in practice varies. Islamic scholars, the ulema, have elaborated systems of law on the basis of these broad rules, supplemented by the hadith reports of how Muhammad and his companions interpreted them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 03:14 PM
If you look at the profile of an abuser, you will see that muslims that are reacting the way they are over the pope's lecture fits that character! The abuser and much of the muslim community today foaming at the mouth and promoting revenge share the need to keep their victims walking on eggshells and as I read today via this site
that it's difficult to reason or have a relationship with them because "with an abuser, conversation is war. Innocent comments become challenges, simple questions become inquisitions, and requests become demands."
So I have come to the conclusion that there is no real peace or real love within Islam....its all a farce to decieve. The violent actions and protest we have witnessed around the world by muslims that have bombed churches, murdered innocents, and continue to bully by demands or threats are just doing so to promote fear and terror. This group 'claiming offence' are not a group of people that have peace or love in their hearts. Each example they give by their actions prove there is no love in their foundations. We are taught in 1 John 4:18 that "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love."
When will the world stop rewarding and stop bowing down to Islamic manipulation?
Posted by: Liquid | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 03:10 PM
Give me the T-shirt.
Posted by: Michael Liccione | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 01:27 PM
I have studies the Qur'an and the Haddith and Islam is not a religion, it is a blueprint for running a non-tolerant, expansionist, theocratic nation.
So called moderate muslims are either not being honest, or they are deliberately not following their profit's commandments.
Feel free to disagree with me AFTER you have studied the Qur'an and the Haddith.
Oh, BTW, The two books in the Qur'an are reversed in chronological order.
Posted by: Brian Bonner | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 11:59 AM
YEAH!
…and I want see (and we’re seeing) that psicho mad dogs DISCREDITED, caught in self-contradiction: thrown fire bombs in Gaza churchs, killed a nun in Somalia, menace attack Vaticano and trying kill the Pope - why? - because they didn’t like hearing their religion is ‘evil and violent’…
Pathological muslins are so sick and scurvy, they’re pathetic….http://inferno_.blig.ig.com.br/
Posted by: Ernesto Ribeiro | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 11:03 AM
Gringo,
You right. Me bad, bad infidel. Olliie & Mohammy say so too,
Posted by: igout | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 07:46 AM
I just received an extraordinary e-mail, which is an interesting point of discussion presumably emanating from my original post. The e-mail's title is "Please explain":
The "exposing Liberal media bias" motto he has mistakenly taken from the NewsBusters logo on my side bar, where I clearly state I am a contributing writer.It is interesting that someone from the Middle East whilst living under the law of Shari'a feels that I am the one who politicizes religion.... Still I guess I should derive some comfort from his comment that one can see can see some intelligencein my choice of paintings...heh.
Beauty is, and always will remain, in the eye of the beholder....
Posted by: Alexandra | Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 03:54 AM
Do you really think one billion of them want you and me dead, or at least converted and circumsized?
Converted? Absolutely. This is in the Koran and as such must be taken at face value or risk apostacy and its unpleasant consequences.
Its not what they "want" per se, rather behaviors they're willing to accept and tolerate from their more radical brethren.
From the point of their victims, tacit acceptance is indistinguishable from collaboration.
Posted by: Purple Avenger | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 11:09 PM
Well then, I suggest we send Brom's "Fire Clown" to quell the Islamic Extremists.
http://members.xoom.alice.it/_XOOM/katrinchen/volume1/brom_fire_clown.jpg
Mulla Nasrudin is a favorite character of the Sufis through which to convey poignant and timeless truths veiled in the guise of humorous, even ridiculous vignette. The stories are often presented through the use of symbology that has developed over the centuries through the poetic literature of the various Sufi orders. The Sufis, realizing the impossibility of conveying their mystical knowledge through common language, have adopted the poetic use of the parable to point to the reality of Life behind its multifarious appearences. As with life, Sufi stories often times must be studied closely in order to penetrate the various meanings of the stories and the various levels of interpretation of the stories which can change based on the level of realization of the reader so that, as one’s realization of life deepens, new meanings may emerge from one and the same story.
Nasrudin might be called a Sufi clown.
Nasrudin used to sit in his favorite outdoor cafe, always at the same seat. One day an urchin appeared, ran up to Nasrudin, knocked his hat off and run away. Nasrudin got up, picked up his hat, dusted it and sat down again at his place.
It happened again the next day, and then again.
The patrons were upset, and some offered Nasrudin to catch the impudent brat and teach him a lesson, but Nasrudin kept his cool, saying that it doesn't work this way.
The boy, encouraged by Nasrudin's inaction, kept knocking his hat off.
One day Nasrudin was approaching the cafe with a friend, one of those who tried to convince him to punish the brat, when the boy appeared. The usual place of Nasrudin was occupied by a fearsome-looking king's soldier. Out of habit, the boy ran up to him and knocked his hat off...
Without a word the soldier drew out his sword and chopped the boy's head off, then picked up the hat and resumed his seat. Nasrudin turned to his friend and said: "Now do you see what I mean?"
Interpretations
The best way to skin a cat is to let it skin itself.
If a problem is sufficiently severe, other people will take care of it.
Pacifism is not necessarily the least violent option.
You should let your pets kill all of the monsters.
You can outlast your troubles.
"Osama bin Laden may go down in history not only as the murderous criminal who declared holy war on the United States, but also as a radical figure in what has come to be called the Islamic Reformation--the epic struggle to define the faith of over a billion people" By Reza Aslan, September 10, 2006, The Boston Globe
"ON JULY 6TH, 2005, in an unprecedented display of intersectarian collaboration, 170 of the world's leading Muslim clerics and scholars gathered in Amman, Jordan, to issue a joint fatwa, or legal ruling, denouncing all acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam."
"This belated attempt by the traditional clerical institutions to assert some measure of influence and authority over the world's Muslims was surely one of the most interesting developments in what has become an epic battle to define the faith and practice of over a billion people. Never before in the history of Islam had representatives of every major sect and school of law assembled as a single body, much less come to terms on issues of mutual concern."
"Yet what made the Amman declaration so remarkable was not its condemnation of terrorism-since Sept. 11, 2001, similar statements have been issued by countless Muslim organizations throughout the world, despite perceptions to the contrary in the West. Rather, it was the inclusion of an all-encompassing fatwa reminding Muslims that only those who have dedicated a lifetime of study to the traditional Islamic sciences-in other words, the clerics themselves-could issue a fatwa in the first place."
"Despite common perception in Europe and the United States, bin Laden's primary target is neither Christians nor Jews (both of whom are referred to by Al Qaeda as ``the far enemy") but rather Islam's traditional clerical institutions along with those hundreds of millions of Muslims who do not share his puritanical worldview (``the near enemy") and who, as a consequence, make up the overwhelming majority of Al Qaeda's victims."...
"Like his 16th-century Christian counterparts, bin Laden is concerned above all else with the purification of his own religion. Al-Qaeda is, after all, a puritanical movement whose members consider themselves the only true believers, and believe all other Muslims are hypocrites, impostors, and apostates who must be convinced of their folly or abandoned to their horrible fate."
"The struggle to define religious faith, as we know from Christian history, can be a chaotic and bloody affair. And the Islamic Reformation has some way to go before it is resolved. It may be too early to speculate how much bin Laden's radical individualism will influence Islam in the coming years. But it is important to note that bin Laden's voice is but one among the chorus of voices clamoring to define the Islamic Reformation."
"There are millions of individuals who, by seizing powers of interpretation for themselves, are developing new and innovative interpretations of Islam: some promoting peace and tolerance, others promoting bigotry and puritanism. Who will win this war for the future of the Islamic faith remains to be seen. But once begun, the struggle cannot be stopped."
Reza Aslan is a scholar of religions and the author of ``No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam" (Random House).
Oh yes...Clowns... The image of the evil clown appears to have gained notoriety to the extent of becoming a cliché.
Cayote is quite the trickster.
"one day
when the prophet Elijah
was standing in the marketplace
a friend came up to him and asked"
"is there anyone in the multitude
who will have a share in the world to come?"
Elijah looked about him
and with a sigh he answered,
"No"
Then he looked about again
and he pointed to two men
who had just entered the marketplace
and were making their way through the crowds.
"Those two men will have a share in the world to come."
"What is their occupation
and what have they done to deserve it?"
asked Elijah's friend.
"They are Clowns"
Elijah replied,
"and when they see people troubled in mind
or heavy with sorrow,
they make them laugh,
and when they see people who quarrel,
they make peace between them."
Sufi story
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 09:44 PM
There will be a show down. Seeking to pacify them will only make the reckoning worse. The most humane course is to look them in the eye and promise to bring upon them endless death and destruction if they persist. Then, if they want it so, do it. We owe this to our forbears and to our posterity.
Posted by: igout | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 04:27 PM
Igout,
In response, if you don't mind, I'm going to get into GD's shoes, or sandals, for a moment, and do a Ghost Shuffle.....
Wow, Igout, how can you know that about our muslim brothers? Have you done a fact-finding mission? Where's your stats? Do you really think one billion of them want you and me dead, or at least converted and circumsized? How can you know all this? Don't you understand we have to stop provoking them, like the Thais are provoking them now in Thailand? You probably have better ties to Bush and the Zionists than a peace-lover like I do. Can't you urge our war-mongers to stop fomenting the 22 (excuse my approximation) muslim insurgencies around the world today? Don't you know that we (or people like you) have been provoking the muslims? Look at those White Colonialists in Africa last century. You can't compare the muslim genocide in Darfur today, and muslims slaughtering Christians. It's a different century, and those old colonialists were white. White men! And Christian!(More or less.)Did you ever hear of the Crusades? Do your homework, Igout. I reccommend wiki-pedia. You can find out how white Christians have always provoked them. Do you think they wanted to slaughter Christian Damascus 1200 years ago? Of course not. They preferred to make it muslim peacefully. What happened? They were provoked. If you don't have time to look it up, I'll get you some url's that will educate you. Listen to the experts. Look what they've done for my comprehension. And you don't have to take it from me. Take it from wiki-pedia. There's nothing like authoritative selectivity for a highly developed sense of compassion, international inter-connectedness, and earnest ecumenicism resting on a non-weaky foundation of earnest expertise.
Do you catch my drift?
Posted by: gringoman | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 07:20 PM
There will be a show down. Seeking to pacify them will only make the reckoning worse. The most humane course is to look them in the eye and promise to bring upon them endless death and destruction if they persist. Then, if they want it so, do it. We owe this to our forbears and to our posterity.
Posted by: igout | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 04:27 PM
Wow, I've never seen those statistics Gringo! Where did you get them so I know how likely it is the "Muslim Episcopalean" strategy will work. :)
We certainly helped fan the flames of Islamic extremism during the Cold War... Maybe we can help "un-fan" them too.
Muslims against Extremism and Fundamentalism
http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm
IslamForToday.com
promoting the theology of Islam
For Westerners seeking a knowledge and understanding of Islam.
A guide to the religion of Islam, Muslim history and civilizations, the rights of women in Islam, Islam in the West and around the world today plus Muslim schools and family life.
"Osama Bin Laden is a product of the movement of political Islam, or Islamism, which first took root in Egypt in the 1920s. The Muslim Brotherhood is in many ways the father, or grandfather, of the many radical movements which exist today."
"It was no accident that 20th-century Islamism was born in the era of European colonialism. Egypt was under British rule, and reactions to colonialism took three principal forms - nationalist, communist and Islamist."
"But the Islamists' response was distinct since, unlike their rivals, they rejected Western secularism, including the essentially secular Western concept of the nation-state."
"Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Brotherhood, famously remarked: "Just as Islam is a faith and a religion, it is also a country and a citizenship."
...more stuff...
"In the 1980s, one of the last great battles of the Cold War had brought an army of Arab Islamist volunteers to Afghanistan."
"After the Soviet defeat some had stayed on, others had returned home, only to discover they were viewed with suspicion."
"A process of displacement took place. As the most radical Arab Islamists found themselves squeezed out by repression in their home countries, they sought refuge in Afghanistan."
"The country gradually became the training ground of a new generation of radical and fiercely anti-Western Islamists."
"Their acknowledged leader in Afghanistan was a young Saudi called Osama Bin Laden. He too had fought the Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and, after a brief homecoming, he too had been forced to flee from his own country in the early 1990s."
"After spending a few years in Sudan, he returned to Afghanistan in 1996."
"This became the new base for his group, Al-Qaeda, a multinational network of Arabs, Chechens, Uzbeks, Kashmiris and others, dedicated to waging a global jihad against "Crusaders and Jews" - in other words, the United States and Israel."
"Seen in historical perspective, Al-Qaeda is an extreme offshoot of the movement of political Islam which had emerged in Egypt in the 1920s."
"But Bin Laden and his fighters broke with the Islamist mainstream in two important respects. While most Islamists believed in "revolution in one country" - usually their own - the new jihad was internationalist."
"Its aim was to fight America not just on American soil, not just in the Middle East, but everywhere. In their eyes, the only adequate response to a global superpower was a global jihad."
"But Bin Laden and his men also broke with their colleagues by resorting to violence against civilians on a scale which no other group had envisaged. The brutal climax of their war against America was the attack against New York and Washington on 11 September."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1609184.stm
The United States supported the international mujahedeen in Afghanistan through its allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan... the Saudis and Pakistanis supported radicalization of Muslims for recruitment through Wahhabist and other Salafist madrassas (schools)... that exist today.
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 03:16 PM
Gringoman... the adversary of the West and the Muslim world is Islamic extremism. While we might deliberately or indeliberately enrage all of Islam in our pursuit of the enemy, it is in the end Islamic extremism that must be quelled.
===============================================================
GD.....When you can explain the moral difference between Islam's 1% of "extremists" and it's 98.5% of "moderates" who are intimidated by the 1%, and/or support the 1%, and/or celebrate the 1%, and/or dance in the streets at news of "holy deeds" like 9.11 or blowing up Israeli pizza parlors and/or praise Allah for the latest beheading of infidels or apostates, and/or vow Death to the West over cartoons, and/or threaten even the Vatican when a Pope dares to attempt adult dialogue and freedom of speech,and/or deny freedom of religion in their countries which they are given in the feckless West, and/or listen fascinated in their mosques as the imam explains Osama's latest declaration of having "religious permission" to kill 10 million Americans in the next strike,and/or, being good muslims, see kaffirs as essentially animals, get back to us.
Posted by: gringoman | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 12:49 PM
Well Michael, I do not believe that Islam worships the same God that Jews and Christians worship either, but the pope in his apology is saying his position on Islam is in line with that of the church.
I personally won't negotiate the gospel of Christ just to "get along" with the muslim's perversions of truth in that they believe mohammed's prophetness over rides Jesus's words and work on the cross!
-------
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Posted by: Liquid | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 09:47 AM
Here is my take on it from my blog:
It seems that the worshippers of the religion of peace, cannot, once again, control themselves. After having reported yesterday that Muslims were angry at the Pope for calling the concept of Jihad "unreasonable" and quoting a Christian emperor who said that Muhammed did not really add anything new to the humanity, except for inhuman and evil things (both things are correct as far as I am concerned), all hell broke loose: Muslim students in India burned effigies of the Pope, in Turkey they said that this Pope would go down "in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini", "in Beirut, Sayyed Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah, one of the world's top Shia Muslim clerics", "Ahmad Khatami told worshippers at Tehran University: "The Pope has insulted Islam" and although there had not been a lot of outbreaks of violence, a 'Cairo-based analyst of Islamic militancy, warned that the comments were "more dangerous than the cartoons because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world. The cartoons just came from an artist."'
The real funny thing is that the Pope simply quoted an unknown emperor, as the Guardian points out, clearly "acknowledged the "startling brusqueness" of the remark" and simply went on "to endorse... the view that "spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable"." This was the entire point of his lecture: that God is reasonable and that doing things that are unreasonable logically are not 'Godly' so to speak. Spreading one's religion with the use of violence is unreasonable and that is why he quoted before mentioned emperor.
In other words, Muslims are angry because they themselves are unable to read carefully and are so willing to play the victim that they misinterpret just about every possible criticism of Islam and, very revealing, they are angry because the Pope calls Jihad unreasonable and therefore not in line with God / what God wants.
This tells us all we need to know about the religion of submission, but just for the sake of providing you all with information about what's happening in the world: the New York Times reports that "unknown assailants threw fire bombs on Saturday at two churches in the West Bank city of Nablus, following a day of Palestinian protests against comments Pope Benedict made about Islam."
The fact that so many Muslim leaders have the guts to demand an apology from the Pope truly is sickening. What I demand is an apology from all those Muslim leaders / Muslims who encourage terrorism, who now encouraged other people to burn an effigy of the Pope, who threatened the Pope with violence, who cheered when the WTC was attacked, who believe that Theo van Gogh "had it coming", who threw fire bombs at the Churches in Gaza and those who believe there is nothing wrong with committing such a crime, andsoforth.
Also read Ed Morrissey's take on this; he clearly explains what the Pope was tried to teach the students / listeners.
Posted by: Michael van der Galien | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 09:40 AM
No we do not worship the same God. Just because MUslims say there is one God and we say so, does not automatically mean that we all worship the same God. I am very confident in saying that my God is quite different from the Islamic God. My God is about love, about forgiveness, about compassion, about peace.
The Islam teaches a God that changes his opinion, that believes the 'faith' should be spread by the sword, &c.
Compare Jesus to Muhammed. Notice any differences? I do. And not small differences either.
Posted by: Michael van der Galien | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 09:36 AM
Here comes the appology....
SOURCE HERE
Some people might ask then what is the church's position????
Let's go to the Vatican and read the DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS NOSTRA AETATE...
NOSTRA AETATE
Posted by: Liquid | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 08:52 AM
I remember when The Force of Reason was released, there were ranks along the streets, and women selling the book in roads; that book sold more than Harry Potter! It was translated in all European languages, and as Italians say, "selling more that hot bread". Oriana was a force of the nature: she shake our consciences, and open up eyes and minds for the awful truth as Jeremayakovka says: Europe IS dead, or rather living a zombie existence.
***********************************************************
In time: Force to the Pope! Finnaly, a man who are, more than a preacher, but also a LEADER - Benedict XVI just said the very thruth, onle revealing the tip of the iceberg about "Mo, the Pedophile" and remembering: NO true religion has the right to make a war - and NO WAR IS HOLY - as the magnificent Bill O'Reilly told yeesterday on Fox News interviewing a muslim woman, about violence that commanded Islam expansion: "I know, it, you know it, everybody knows."
Posted by: Ernesto Ribeiro | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 07:55 AM
Things are slowly mewnding. Now who will be our Peter the Hermit?
Posted by: igout | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 06:23 AM
Gringoman... the adversary of the West and the Muslim world is Islamic extremism. While we might deliberately or indeliberately enrage all of Islam in our pursuit of the enemy, it is in the end Islamic extremism that must be quelled.
If the objective is the obliteration of Islam, it is a fools errand. The objective should not be the domination, subjugation or elimination of Islam, but rather a condition in which the Islamic extremists practice of faith is transformed to something more akin to a typical Episcopalean's practice of faith.
Fallaci was fabulous and outrageous... making some good points with respect to cultural assimilation, or lack thereof, in Eurabia.
However, a macro-level antipathy to Islam if carried out as Governmental Policy, in general, places at risk relationships with Nations such as Turkey... Pro-Western, Secular, Muslim... Friend of Israel, and wannabe member of the EU.
Think "Episcopalean" Muslim.
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 06:08 AM
Oriana Fallaci:
Body of a frail dying bird,
Heart of a lion still roaring.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As for this intellectual and increasingly interesting Pope Benedict XVI who has decided to question Islam in a way you can't imagine any American President or politician doing(even if he had the mind to), it's probably too early in the "fateful dialogue" for the following "indiscreet" quotation, but whenever the Pope is ready, here it is, with gringo-pedia compliments:
"The birth of Mohammed was fortunately placed in the most degenerate and disorderly period of the Persians, the Romans and the barbarians of Europe. The empires of Trajan, or even of Constantine or Charlemagne, would have repelled the assault of the naked Saracens, and the torrent of fanaticism might have been obscurely lost in the sands of Arabia,"
---Edward Gibbon
Posted by: gringoman | Friday, September 15, 2006 at 09:45 PM
This Pontif is really quite brilliant. The lecture isn't about slam-dunking Islam.
While criticizing certain modes of reason (positivism, for example), and the notion that human reasoning should exclude the objects of theology (once more disclose its vast horizons, he takes the argument to show how only with a rightfully expanded framework for reasoning can there even be a cross-cultural dialogue and understanding.(A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures.).
"And so I come to my conclusion. This attempt, painted with broad strokes, at a critique of modern reason from within has nothing to do with putting the clock back to the time before the Enlightenment and rejecting the insights of the modern age. The positive aspects of modernity are to be acknowledged unreservedly: we are all grateful for the marvellous possibilities that it has opened up for mankind and for the progress in humanity that has been granted to us. The scientific ethos, moreover, is the will to be obedient to the truth, and, as such, it embodies an attitude which reflects one of the basic tenets of Christianity. The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application. While we rejoice in the new possibilities open to humanity, we also see the dangers arising from these possibilities and we must ask ourselves how we can overcome them. We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith."
"Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today. In the Western world it is widely held that only positivistic reason and the forms of philosophy based on it are universally valid. Yet the world’s profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures. At the same time, as I have attempted to show, modern scientific reason with its intrinsically Platonic element bears within itself a question which points beyond itself and beyond the possibilities of its methodology"
He argues against a concept of God in which He is so abstract in the transcendental that He is irrelevant... perhaps even totally capricious:
"God’s transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language (cf. Lateran IV). God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love "transcends" knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is logos. Consequently, Christian worship is 8@(46¬ 8"JD,\" - worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1)."
I would slightly modify one thing:
"From the very heart of Christian faith and, at the same time, the heart of Greek thought now joined to faith, Manuel II was able to say: Not to act "with logos" is contrary to God’s nature."
Given what the Pontif articulates... the words of Manuel II would be improved as such:
-Not to act with logos is contrary to the nature of our proper relationship with God.-
This acknowledges the existential fact that we imperfectly "know" God within the context of our reasoning (the logos/word- One of God's gifts as author of our conscious existence), are in dialogue with others within this context... providing the possibility of reasonable dialogue in general, and reasonable cross-cultural dialogue in particular.
Also, the lecture the Pontif provides tacitly suggests the existential ground from which emerge multiple Theologies.
The human reasoning itself produces Theology as we struggle to accomodate our capacity for reason, with those aspects of our existence, including our relationship with God and all that is ascribed to Him, that points beyond and transcends our limits... the mystery of our existence... the mystery of God.
Faith for all defects supplying, where the feable senses (and reason) fail... perhaps God is the reason for Faith itself?
the plot of our life sweats in the dark like a face
the mystery of childbirth, of childhood itself
grave visitations
what is it that calls to us?
why must we pray screaming?
why must not death be redefined?
we shut our eyes we stretch out our arms
and whirl on a pane of glass
an afixiation a fix on anything the line of life the limb of a tree
the hands of He and the promise that She is blessed among women.
(oh God I fell for you ...)
Posted by: Ghost Dansing | Friday, September 15, 2006 at 09:29 PM
Who wants to have a dialogue with a group of people that get offended or insulted over anything, especially after when it comes to scrutiny or pointing out the truth in that dialogue that time and time again when it happens that they have this savage possessed fit reaction where they have to take to the streets with death chants and burn something or someone has to die?
The Pope gives a lecture and speaks the truth and just look at the response by muslims! The muslims cry foul and demand this and that and start with the "ignorant and bigot" remarks and begin their bullying so much that the vatican has to step up it's security? I can see why they would too, since in the past, the muslims have proven that they are not above protest that leave people dead! Time and time again, there has been opportunity to prove to the world that Islam is or can be a religion of peace...but each time that opportunity arises, many muslims choose violence and death chants over anything else! It's just another ploy to silence people...even the Pope from speaking out the truth about Islam. Bullying is their strongest tool today in this political correct world we live in and it will continue and get worse until we address it straight up. But will anyone? The Pope has tried and look at the response....Bottom line from observation is that you cannot reason or have a reasonable dialogue without tip toeing around the meat of the subject! Allah doesn't allow it!
Posted by: Liquid | Friday, September 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM
Benedicts comments have been taken out of context, both by the MSM and by Muslim agitators. The quote was an introduction to a theological topic that has been around a long time. It was a sidelight in the speech. Perhaps a reflection on the forced conversions of the two Fox reporters last month.
The reaction is instructive. The MSM will incite as much trouble as it can with the quote because it is, after all, the Pope.
The Muslim agitators will also cause as much trouble as they can. However they are making a big mistake. Anyone who looks into the speech with intelligence can see that there is no ground for offense.
So what the Muslim agitators are doing is revealing their true nature. They are walking around with a big chip on their shoulders, saying knock it off and we will fight. Or if you do something that the agitator says knocks the chip off they will start a fight.
Never mind that such a fight is totally one sided (not in their favor) unless the West ties both hands behind its back.
So they are revealed: They are just trying to start a war. Nothing more, nothing less. They are chippy, aggressive, and really dumb (because they do not see what war will bring them.)
The fact that the West does not want war encourages them. So how do you deal with such weak minded idiots?
They want to die. Wipe them out. As politically correctly as possible, but wipe them out at the minimum cost.
They deserve no more.
Posted by: rich | Friday, September 15, 2006 at 07:23 PM
You're exceptionally kind, Alexandra (though I'll take it :-)). Earlier this year, on the strength of bloggers' recommendations I purchased The Force of Reason (along with about a dozen other hardcover titles - which I otherwise never do, but it's part of my crash course in blogging). As a result, today's post was written with "the force of Fallaci." Good for an apprentice blogger or writer, still coming into his own. May everybody with an inkling for it go out and buy and read any of her recent titles. She truly is sui generis.
Posted by: Jeremayakovka | Friday, September 15, 2006 at 06:09 PM
I just hope that the pope doesn't do a 360 degrees on the content of what he said, because his example is going to set the protocol for many in the future. Speaking the truth is obviously being attacked. Islam demanding that it shouldn't be scrutinized in any context is just crazy.
*Keeping my fingers crossed that the Pope doesn't go all political correct on us.
Posted by: Liquid | Friday, September 15, 2006 at 06:02 PM